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Unrecoverable Worship

08/19/05

Permalink 05:15:25 pm, by dissidens Email , 1114 words, 3758 views   English (US)
Categories: Old Main

Unrecoverable Worship

Some may persist in the wish that I not be so pessimistic. Or, they might think I am overstating the case in order to make a point and that deep down somewhere in my black heart there must be some hope that true worship is still possible. I am about to disappoint those people.

I wouldn’t disappoint anyone for the pleasure of it, but I think so long as we congratulate ourselves on our attempts to restore proper worship, we will continue to live in a comfortable fantasy but never deal with the condition that really exists.

A.W. Tozer gives, I think, two-thirds of a good definition of worship. He says many good things and I like all of what he said. But I would like to add one idea which I think is not just decorative: I believe this third element is as essential to proper worship as the two he rightly gives.

He says that worship is to a) feel in the heart, and to b) express in some appropriate manner.

Take those two statements as our first obstacle to proper worship. Many people today struggle to feel something in worship, and it is only natural that they bring into church what they already have some feelings for in an attempt to satisfy A. But if they come to worship with wrong affections, they cannot satisfy B. And should they, by virtue of a sheer act of the will, and in all good conscience, strive to satisfy B but are unable to have those feelings in their heart, they will have failed to satisfy A.

And if Tozer is right, A is as necessary as B.

The necessary connection between feelings of the heart and appropriate expression is not something we will into existence. That comes to us through our culture. “Using the right words to say the right things” and to feel properly about those right things. If you don’t think this is a problem, do what I suggested before: imagine trying to worship with music you hate. You may, for the sake of the church unity, try to have those feelings, but you might as well command a butterfly to land on your nose. It ain’t gonna happen.

Once evangelicals decided for whatever reason that they had a new way, a more appealing way, a more exciting way, a more evangelistically effective way to talk about God, that connection was broken. That began at least a century ago depending on how you do your cultural reckoning.

Nothing I know about how we come to love and value the right things (especially those things which we are at first disinclined to love or cherish) suggests that this is a fixable problem. This is the sort of thing that takes those thousands of years Eliot talks about. Something is not meaningful because we decide that it would be nice for it to be meaningful; it is meaningful because we come to appreciate a meaning that does indeed exist and we come to recognize and embrace it out of love for it. It is both true and loved for its truth.

But I think there is another complication. It is not just that A and B act for us like the same poles on two magnets; I think there is a third element to a definition of proper worship. In fact, I think Tozer would agree to this; I think the idea was in his head, he just didn’t develop it. He closes his sermon by quoting the Te Deum. The Te Deum lists all who worship: the earth, the angels, cherubs and seraphs, Heaven and Earth, Apostles, Prophets, Martyrs and the holy church throughout the world. That is what the Te Deum is: a list of worshipers.

It seems to me one of the central ideas important to St. John is fellowship, not just us with God, but us with each other. And not just us with each other of our time (or local gathering) but us with every believer who ever lived, suffered, worked and witnessed: all the elect of the church except for those not yet born. I don’t think this is a doctrinal flourish. It is not one topic among many for worship; it is the scope, the amplitude, of our worship.

So. Is not worship a) feeling in the heart, b) expressed in an appropriate manner c) a truth we all hold in common, what we all cherish as always true?

Is not the alternative that the church does not fellowship around one Lord, one faith and one baptism? It has a variously understood Lord, a sequence of doctrinal permutations, and a rite which means many different things, depending on whom and when you ask. It seems to me that the burden of the Te Deum is just this idea of a commonly held feeling in the heart appropriately expressed. This is also true of many of the Psalms. It is not just that private Jews recognize a covenant-keeping God.

Certainly the 20th Century church will have more to say than the 1st Century church, having seen more and having more to express, but surely what it says cannot be other than something known by the whole church. Some may say more than others, but those things around which we fellowship must be the same things.

And if this is so, and if we can see difficulty in achieving A and B, how much less likely is it that we will achieve C as well? How offensive must some of our words be to Abraham, David, Isaiah, Mary, John?

Might it not be a good thing, for those of us who wish to repair our worship, to devote ourselves to a recovery of this element of worship?

______________________________

All glory, laud and honor to Thee Redeemer, King,
To whom the lips of children made sweet hosannas ring:
Thou are the King of Israel, Thou David’s royal Son,
Who in the Lord’s name comest, The King and blessed One.

The company of angels Are praising Thee on high,
And mortal men and all things Created make reply:
The people of the Hebrews With palms before Thee went;
Our praise and prayer and anthems Before Thee we present.

To Thee, before Thy passion They sang their hymns of praise;
To Thee, now high exalted, Our melody we raise:
Thou didst accept their praises; Accept the praise we bring,
Who in all good delightest, Thou good and gracious King.

Children and kings, angels and mortals, before his death and after his resurrection.

We just don’t believe in this kind of antiphonal worship anymore.

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1 Trackback from: Kara Ministries Weblog [Visitor]
Web Watch Archives
8.20 A Brazilian Surprise Kevin Bauder "If, lacking our advantages, a church in Amazonia could learn to worship reverently and ordinately, what is our excuse?" 8.20 Unrecoverable Worship Dissidens I disagree with Dissidens' pessimism, but he has good t...
PermalinkPermalink 08/20/05 @ 12:51

Reply to comment 802 by Kara Ministries Weblog

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2 Comment from: Brother Quotidian [Visitor] · http://www.stathanasiusuac.org
A couple of comments accompanyied by a question or two (which I think I know the answers to, but I don't want to be presumptuous; so I'll ask, just to be sure):

Comment 1: Your summary of Tozer sounds awfully close to the time-tested-and-proven principle of worship which is expressed in these words: lex orandi, lex credendi. I don't know if Tozer was trying to paraphrase this principle; or, perhaps, to restate it in a fashion which might escape the scorn of anti-liturgical anabaptists; or, perhaps, he had re-discovered what a lot of Christians throughout history have always known, viz. that there is an organic -- nay, a mutually re-enforcing and defining -- connection between what one believes (including one's feelings about those beliefs) and how one worships. At the considerable risk of oversimplifying your overall critique concerning fundamentalist/evangelical worship, I'd express that critique in the terms of this principle thusly: the oranda (the things that are done as worship) are vastly overwhelming, compromising, and (perhaps) changing the credenda (the things that are professed as beliefs).

If I'm misreading you here, I suspect others are too. So, in that case, a word of correction would be helpful.

Comment 2: In a much longer thread recently, DGus asked Does everyone here subscribe to a notion of "separation" that consigns all liturgical churches to outer darkness? I awaited with interest a reply; but so far none has been forthcoming from anyone.

It's a question I've had too, as I've read through this discussion. From my perspective (historic fundamentalist in a so-called "continuing" Angical jurisdiction), so much of what is bemoaned at this blog has a kind of "answer" or "solution" or "amelioration" within the catholic (note the small "c") worship of Western Christendom. Specifically, its liturgical dynamics and its sacramental spirituality provide fairly strong hedges against the flaws complained about here.

Don't misread me here: I'm painfully aware that the 20th and 21st Century grandsons of the English Reformation have a multitude of woes within their gates; but, they don't seem to be exactly the ones you're complaining about here.

bq
PermalinkPermalink 08/20/05 @ 14:57

Reply to comment 804 by Brother Quotidian

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3 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
1

I think lex orandi, lex credendi is absolutely true. If I have any objection to it as a guideline, it is that it is just one instance of a much larger truth: it’s not just about prayer and belief, it is about all words and about who we are. It is a truth that transcends acts of worship; it is a fact of life.

What staggers my mind is that professing Christians feel they are somehow immune. The “sanction of ideological commitment” will not excuse them from the consequences.

As I quoted earlier, “Words never fail. We hear them, we read them; they enter into the mind and become part of us for as long as we shall live. Who speaks reason to his fellow men bestows it on them. Who mouths inanity disorders thought for all who listen.”

Weaver was not just trying to be poetic; he was speaking with scientific accuracy; thought can be disordered by untrue or inane statements.

We cannot lie without effect. We cannot speak falsehoods and survive. If we say what is not true, we begin our own undoing. That necessarily includes what we say in worship. We cannot say inane things in worship and not pay a price. Some are belatedly coming to the realization that they have embraced very cloddish falsehoods; they now think that what they need is more elegant falsehoods.

They will learn.

2

I think you oversimplify things here.

I value tradition. It has great virtues; I wish evangelicalism had a regard for tradition, but they like to throw out baby and bath water in one smooth motion and with plenty of wrist action.

Tradition is good in that it stabilizes things with prudence. So long as it preserves the thoughtful, considered judgment of the many, it is an unmitigated good. The downside is that when tradition is perverted, which it certainly can be—everything in this life can be perverted—it is nearly impossible to overturn. That stability becomes rigidity. It has a life of its own.

I reject the reflexive thoughtlessness of fundamentalists. It is in their nature; they have been permanently deformed by the events of their history. Clearly there are virtuous men outside the fundamentalist camp: I grew up with them. I know their names.

There were even good Nazis. But when you want your following to remain loyal, you cannot admit the most obvious truths. It is very difficult for Tom to get Dick to separate from Harry so long as Dick admires Harry’s virtues, so Tom has his reasons for badmouthing Harry. This is despicable.

On the other hand, I see no refuge among the liturgical traditionalists who see their well-anchored error as a remedy for their opponents’ flighty reactionism.

Tradition is to be valued for its stability, not for its truthfulness. Not all traditions are true.

Fundamentalists will read someone out of the kingdom because their girls wear pants at summer camp. Episcopalians marry and ordain sodomites, and some churches begin their glacial withdrawal.

A pox on both their houses.
PermalinkPermalink 08/20/05 @ 16:51

Reply to comment 805 by dissidens

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4 Comment from: Unk [Visitor]
I am so doomed I don't even know what you're saying.
PermalinkPermalink 08/20/05 @ 17:24

Reply to comment 806 by Unk

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5 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
How so?
PermalinkPermalink 08/20/05 @ 17:55

Reply to comment 807 by dissidens

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6 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
Dissidens: You say, "liturgical traditionalists ... see their well-anchored error as a remedy for their opponents’ flighty reactionism." But you don't identify the "well-anchored error". Br. Q's "Continuing Anglican" body presumably uses the widely available and well understood 1928 Book of Common Prayer.
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/BCP_1928.htm
What error(s) do you see embodied in the 1928 BCP? What are the "not true" traditions that keep you from Anglicanism?

(BTW, "Continuing Anglican" means the church is NOT in the ECUSA (so the "sodomite" comment does not apply to Br. Q's church) and is therefore NOT in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury, although this non-affiliation may change as a result of the "glacial" realignment of which you speak.)

You refer to the ills of "say[ing] inane things in worship", and I ratify the complaint. Anyone from an evangelical- fundamentalist-"low church" background who spends a few years in the Book of Common Prayer may experience a jolt on returning for a visit at that non-liturgical church that don't need no book in order to pray. The extemporaneous praying is, for the most part, very inferior. It tends overwhelmingly to be wordy, meandering, cliche-ridden, and pocked with occasional slips and misstatements, doctrinal and otherwise. (I once heard a distracted pastor praise Jesus who "died on the throne". No one who noticed would have thought he was proposing some new and bizarre heresy, but it is the sort of thing that happens much less often when you are praying a prayer that was carefully and deliberately planned, composed, revised, and studied.) Extemporaneous prayer also overlooks for forgets things that ought to be prayed, but since no one is keeping track, some prayers aren't ever prayed. If your concept of "cultural apostasy" is valid (and I'm not convinced), then the gravest privation that fundamentalist suffers would be the Christian liturgy itself.

The ills that you complain of are largely addressed in the imperfect but very good worship of the churches that still use some form or other of the liturgy that Christians have always used in worship. (Within Protestantism, these would be mostly Anglican and Lutheran, although I know less about the latter.) This form of worship--reverent, Biblical, catholic, and in a line that stretches back to the Apostles--is not a lost art that can't be reconstructed, or that will take a millenium to recover. Somewhere in your city, they'll be faithfully doing it tomorrow. You could join right in. In a few weeks, it would be second nature. In a couple years, you wouldn't be able to remember why you ever did anything else. And you'll stop seeing it as a "remedy" for or a reaction to any other church's problems and simply do it as Christian worship.

Or you can stay in a church that you hate and listen to music and prayers that you can't stand performed by people whom you despise--but that is not what we mean by "the communion of the saints", and you should hope for better. Here and now.
PermalinkPermalink 08/20/05 @ 18:04

Reply to comment 808 by DGus

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7 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
I was speaking generally of all churches that BQ might be offering as a remedy to yahoo worship. The point I took from his comments was not his particular church, but any liturgically traditional church. The very wording "liturgically traditional" was intentionally vague so as not to identify a particular church or associate any particular moral outrage with it. If he was talking about his church in particular, I missed it.

My point is: a) formality of worship or b) tradition is not a solution to all the problems a church-goer faces.

I am not seeking formal worship. No church I know will give me the formality I am capable of revelling in. I love form.

I am seeking true worship. I am no more impressed with churches that celebrate their formality than those that celebrate their informality. "Your" formality guarantees no more truth than their informality.
PermalinkPermalink 08/20/05 @ 19:48

Reply to comment 809 by dissidens

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8 Comment from: Unk [Visitor]
I don't know how to put all your long post together. I can agree there is not true worship. Maybe you don't think Christians today can agree because you are very optimistic about the number of people around who actually are Christians? If in this pessimistic post you are smuggling in some optimism, that would confuse me. Somehow, I don't think you are. So I think I'm doomed. I've read the post at least 6 times and puzzled over it longer than I should. I'll await developments.
PermalinkPermalink 08/20/05 @ 20:17

Reply to comment 810 by Unk

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9 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
Is it possible you have a shifting complaint? You regret the losses suffered by "cultural apostasy", because those losses disable Christians from true worship. But when it is asserted that there are Christian communions where tradition has retained what you feared was lost, you denigrate the value of tradition. Tradition, though, is the only alternative to apostasy. Tradition is the preserving and handing on of what one received (e.g., 1 Cor. 11:23)--and passing on such tradition is a Christian mandate. (See 2 Thess 2:15; 1 Tim 6:13-14; 2 Tim 1:13-14, 2:2; etc.)

Your mentions of "formality" took me by surprise, since that is not what liturgical worship is about. Of course there are very "formal" high-church Anglo-Catholic churches, and there are also plain, simple, "Puritan"-like Anglican churches. The thing they have in common is not formality but the liturgy--the continuity of what Christians have always done. (I can't imagine attending a church that "celebrate[s its] formality.")

Disclaiming all this, you seek "true worship", which you earlier defined as "a) feeling in the heart, b) expressed in an appropriate manner c) a truth we all hold in common." I have to infer that the thing lacking (for you) in the Christian liturgy is the "feeling in the heart". On the one hand I want to say that Christians who pray the liturgy DO have this feeling; but on the other hand I wonder if this "feeling" component of the definition is an error and a trap. I can't think of a good Biblical argument in favor of that definition. The closest passage--Jesus' statement about worship "in spirit and in truth" (in John 4)--seems to refer not to my "spirit" (i.e., my feelings?) but to the Holy Spirit, by whom we do indeed worship (see Php. 3:3).

I admire Tozer, and his spirituality is a sound ideal, and if he said "feeling" is part of worship, then I pause before disagreeing. Certainly there's no denying that the best worship does involve a unity of reason, will, AND passions. But isn't it true that "worship" happens when I submit, obey, kneel, and praise, even if my feelings are lagging or flagging? I once studied the Biblical Greek and Hebrew vocabulary for worship (I don't know those languages; I used helps), and was impressed to learn that the main words for "worship" mean simply "kneel" or "prostrate oneself".

I know you would eschew the all-about-me subjectivism on display in the tackiest "contemporary" worship. I think, though, that some of the same crippling subjectivism may be at work when we define worship as happening when I feel a certain way about God. I propose, instead, that worship happens when, however I may be feeling, I yield my will to who God is. Maybe a decent analogy would be romantic passion in marital love: Love is a decision and an act of the will, which precedes and is often accompanied by passion, but the love has priority and doesn't depend on the passion. Likewise, worship (I propose) is a decision and an act of the will, which precedes and is often accompanied by feelings, but the worship has priority and doesn't depend on the feelings.

In your original post in this thread, you say, "We just don’t believe in this kind of antiphonal worship anymore."

But many Christians do. Every week we pray, in these very words,

"... Therefore with Angels and Archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify thy glorious Name; evermore praising thee, and saying,

"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts:
Heaven and earth are full of thy Glory...."
PermalinkPermalink 08/20/05 @ 23:08

Reply to comment 812 by DGus

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10 Comment from: capdoctor [Visitor]
diss, what is your view of divine providence and culture? Is it perhaps the same as providence and evil?

PermalinkPermalink 08/21/05 @ 05:29

Reply to comment 813 by capdoctor

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11 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
God is sovereign over the fall of everything from empires to raindrops.

That includes cultures.
PermalinkPermalink 08/21/05 @ 10:55

Reply to comment 814 by dissidens

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12 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
DGus:

You are wrong on every point, but I am done correcting every willful misinterpretation.

The one I will address, since it is relevant to my point in this thread, has to do with which component of the three I find least achievable. It is not A; I can indeed feel in the heart. It is not B; I know what is appropriate and inappropriate. What is fitting worship does not change with time and place and theological eccentricity. There are libraries and museums full of examples of what is fitting. These inform my notions of what is useful and valuable.

What is least achievable is C. It is not possible for me (and I speak with others who agree with me—and whose sense of frustration I am striving to express) to find those that even care to pursue, let along achieve, this church-wide fellowship, this notion of a communion of the saints.

I play Bach, I contemplate the Bosch print over my desk, I read Bunyan and Milton. These have meaning. These move me. It is as though Sunday is a day off from serious thought about God and good.

I go to church and find no meaning at all, just a feeble attempt at some parochial enthusiasm which the locals take to be expressions of God-love.

For those who may be reading me with an eye to improvement, it seems to me that modern Christians might strive for A and B, and in some provincial way come to some compromise over what constitutes an appropriate manner. (This is what fundamentalists are attempting. They are failing at achieving both A and B, but they are trying to impose a canon.)

To the thoughtful I suggest that we dare not forget the necessity of C. We worship Job’s God, Abraham’s, Isaac’s and Jacob’s God, David’s God… When we worship the god of our own personal needs and the satisfier of every private appetite, we are idolators. The Saints of the past would bolt from our worship and vomit.

PermalinkPermalink 08/21/05 @ 11:35

Reply to comment 815 by dissidens

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13 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
I know you must be exaggerating my accomplishment to say I'm "wrong on EVERY point", since even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

It sounds, from your description, like when you play Bach, read Bunyan and Milton, and view Bosch, you feel a communion with them, as with or by their works you "express[] in an appropriate manner ... a truth we all hold in common." Correct me if I'm wrong (or inveigh, as is your wont). I think that is exactly the way Christians should experience and appreciate their Christian heritage, acknowledging a kinship and communion with the Christians in heaven.

But if that is correct, then I'll observe there is a wide doctrinal diversity among your examples--Bach the rather Catholic Lutheran, Bunyan the Baptist separatist, and Milton the probable heretic (I know nothing about Bosch's beliefs). The "truth [you] hold in common" with that eclectic group appears to be be rather broadly defined. With that breadth as your standard, and employing the tolerance of difference that it reflects, you shouldn't have any trouble finding any number of churches today that meet your doctrinal standards. I don't understand--but I would LIKE to understand--why instead you, who have such an obvious affinity for the broad catholic sweep of historic Christianity, now restrict yourself to a narrowly circumscribed circle of churches whose deficiencies you find so galling.

By the way, I consider very salutary, and worth repeating, your warning: "When we worship the god of our own personal needs and the satisfier of every private appetite, we are idolators."
PermalinkPermalink 08/21/05 @ 14:18

Reply to comment 816 by DGus

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14 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Aw, c'mon. I'm sure you can imagine some reason I shouldn't find Bosch admirable.
PermalinkPermalink 08/21/05 @ 16:34

Reply to comment 817 by dissidens

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15 Comment from: capdoctor [Visitor]
So diss, if you find Bosh, Bach, and Bunyan admirable, how about Michelangelo's David? Do you prefer it with or without the Victorian olive leaf? On another note, would you have put drunken Noah's clothes on or left him naked?
PermalinkPermalink 08/21/05 @ 20:15

Reply to comment 818 by capdoctor

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16 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
I admire it.

As a general principle I am not in favor of bowdlerizing any art.
PermalinkPermalink 08/21/05 @ 21:35

Reply to comment 819 by dissidens

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17 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
Sorry, Dissidens, I truly know nothing more about Bosch than one could know from superficially viewing prints of three or four of his most famous paintings. I don't care for them, but I can't critique them. But here's someone who says Bosch was a heretic (a Cathar, in particular):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0863151981/102-6677255-5152926?v=glance

But you may have misunderstood me. I think that Bach and Bunyan are utterly admirable, and that notwithstanding their differing beliefs they do both belong solidly in the orthodox Christian mainstream--and that every Christian should be broad enough to count them both our brothers. Bosch, too, for all I know (unless he really WAS a Cathar).

CD: OK, I'll bite. I vote in favor of the fig leaf, and obscuring Noah's nakedness. What's your point?
PermalinkPermalink 08/21/05 @ 22:16

Reply to comment 820 by DGus

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18 Comment from: capdoctor [Visitor]
DGus,

My point is that you are, at least, consistent with your answers. I like to expose the inconsistencies, but HE often does not get it:). I think he is playing Derrida's language game with us or perhaps even other possible world games or both?????

The above question was just one of many examples. Dissidens wants things sometimes to be mitigated but at others he likes to expose all the warts, especially when it comes to those of the Church and culture. I can't find any worldview consistency in his critiques.

BTW, if you are who I think you are, I am proud you have read your way out of fundy world. We've never met, but I was in the Gville area and heard the apocryphal tales of the good doc's wayward son:). At the time I did not know any better than to agree with them. Now, I think we have much in common.

Also, fyi, Thomas Oden cites a Medieval Xrn who used the Noah's clothes motif as a hermeneutical principle, meaning some things are better left covered. I like checking out old dissidens responses. He is quite amusing, but I am sure he'd hate that appellation.
PermalinkPermalink 08/22/05 @ 04:42

Reply to comment 821 by capdoctor

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19 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
Well, CD, you're operating at an intellectual level a little higher than mine. I know I'm supposed to remember Derrida, but I don't. BTW, in my Episcopalian circles I am still called a fundamentalist. It's not given as a compliment, but I take it as one. (My son once quipped that we are lower-case "b" baptists, which is a fair point.)
PermalinkPermalink 08/22/05 @ 07:27

Reply to comment 822 by DGus

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20 Comment from: capdoctor [Visitor]
The late Jacques Derrida was a leading French pomo philosopher, existentialist, deconstructionist, or what have you. Essentially, he was anti-logocentric and played flip-flop games with the prominent element of western binarity sets: e.g. existence over essence, darkness over light, female over male, negative before positive, etc. One could never "pin-him-down." The words he wrote were essentially games for midget minds.
PermalinkPermalink 08/22/05 @ 11:45

Reply to comment 823 by capdoctor

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21 Comment from: Neoclassical [Visitor]
DGus,
Episcopalian under the name of Baptist (regardless of whether B or b)? I'm surely confused!
PermalinkPermalink 08/23/05 @ 08:42

Reply to comment 832 by Neoclassical

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22 Comment from: ECScrubb [Visitor]
Dissidens,

Could you tell me where to find the Tozer sermon you reference? Maybe you've already done this, but, if so, I missed it. Thanks.
PermalinkPermalink 08/23/05 @ 08:47

Reply to comment 834 by ECScrubb

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23 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Indeed.

It’s a little booklet called, Worship, The Missing Jewel of the Evangelical Church (a series of three sermons)

The forward says that Tozer spoke to pastors of the Associated Gospel Churches of Canada; the sermons were edited for Advance and later published in The Alliance Witness.

Christian Publications, Inc.
25 South Tenth Street
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 17101

30 pages; no date, no ISBN

I suspect it is still available, but probably combined with other things and perhaps going under another title. I don’t know where I got this; it may have come from my father’s library.
PermalinkPermalink 08/23/05 @ 09:33

Reply to comment 835 by dissidens

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24 Comment from: Unk [Visitor]
If you go here - http://www.theboc.com/home/tozerdevotion/
and click Tozer Audio Sermons, you get a popup with a drop down where you can get 5 worship sermons. I bet one of them is the one.
PermalinkPermalink 08/23/05 @ 10:18

Reply to comment 836 by Unk

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25 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Yes, there are significant differences, but if you go where Unk pointed you, look under "Worship Series", and click on 4/5.

(Which, incidentally, all you fundamentalists should listen to.)
PermalinkPermalink 08/23/05 @ 10:50

Reply to comment 837 by dissidens

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26 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
Neo: Sorry to be unclear. You're probably familar with the convention of referring to someone or something as "lower-case 'c' catholic", meaning that it's not Roman Catholic, but catholic in the broader sense of "universal" and/or broadly within historic Christianity. By analogy, the "lower-case 'b' baptist" quip was intended to connote that, despite our being Episcopalian, we retain much of the personality, culture, and even doctrine of fundamentalist-evangelical Protestantism. (E.g., most glaringly, we don't baptize our babies.)
PermalinkPermalink 08/23/05 @ 11:00

Reply to comment 838 by DGus

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27 Comment from: Unk [Visitor]
Especially the parts about Elijah and the Satellite and the bit at the end are what you have in mind dissidens?
PermalinkPermalink 08/23/05 @ 14:57

Reply to comment 840 by Unk

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28 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
All the bits, actually.

I like the bits about fundamentalist songs. I wish they'd've listened. America would have a different church today.

In one of those two sermons, Tozer mentions his music man, Ray MacAfee.
Remember that name.
PermalinkPermalink 08/23/05 @ 15:34

Reply to comment 841 by dissidens

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29 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
MacAfee? I know-- He invented the anti-virus software!

(Does this relate to the CRT comment?)
PermalinkPermalink 08/23/05 @ 16:50

Reply to comment 849 by DGus

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30 Comment from: capdoctor [Visitor]
Any body else here think AW Tozer was a stoic or just a volitional mystic?
PermalinkPermalink 08/31/05 @ 21:20

Reply to comment 913 by capdoctor

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