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Once Again

09/19/05

Permalink 02:02:00 pm, by dissidens Email , 930 words, 3251 views   English (US)
Categories: Old Main

Once Again

Let me explain once again what we are doing here at Remonstrans; this may go further than anything to explain why I take the attitude I do.

As I have repeatedly said, the modern church has departed from the prudent (or at the very least, the considered) judgments of its past. I have compared our situation to watersheds of our history: the rejection of the Church of Rome, the Church of England and Modernism. I believe we are at such a point.

At a very basic level we see the church embracing forms of entertainment it has consistently proscribed. There is irrefutable decline in its worship no matter how you measure it. There is a moral decay that has already been conceded. What used to be viewed with a gimlet eye has now become so broadly accepted as to be beyond criticism. What was useful devotional fare has become market-driven self-help. Even in its strict theology, it is difficult to identify a place for truth. Books have been written about all of this.

All of these critiques come from outside Remonstrans; they are not unique to us. We did not concoct them; we discovered them. In fact, when I suspected something I said might be viewed as a personal view, I offered a source for our visitors to read and consider, whether it was Aristotle, Augustine, Copland, Weaver, Pascal, Tozer, Kaplan, Gardiner. . . . I offer not what I consider to be proofs, but evidence of past belief. I am not primarily arguing the church is wrong—though obviously I do think that—I am arguing that the church has changed.

This is a necessary distinction I make here. It is essential to your understanding of the blog.

We do not oppose the philistines because they hold different views from ours. We oppose them because they oppose the view of the historic Church.

Remember that that is our reason for Remonstrans. Our first post was a list of readings that would militate against these contemporary eccentricities.

We reject the spirit of the age and we oppose the philistines. We do not complain that the church has departed from dissidens’ point of view. I couldn’t care less, and you shouldn’t much care. It is important that we recognize that if dissidens were never born—while an attractive possibility and a preferable alternative—Christians would still have to deal with this apostasy.

I have as many opinions as your typical Brooklyn Jew, and half as shy about sharing them with the world. Ask anyone who knows me. (In fact, I started my own blog for that purpose when this one began just so I could remain single-minded here. But Remonstrans dominated my spare time, so the world is stumbling along without my help right now. Which is regrettable.)

The level of this apostasy is profound, in my view: it touches on the very transcendentals of our life: the good, the true and the beautiful. On Remonstrans we seek to illustrate the fundamental nature of this critique. The church today is more profoundly wrong than it has ever been, and it no longer has a commonly accepted standard of what is good, true and beautiful. In the past there could be reformers, dissidents and fundamentalists. Today I do not anticipate any parallel remedy.

This critique is perhaps uncommon, but even then it is not unique. All of which is to say, when we have certain nattering defenders of the status quo, especially when being deliberately obtuse, I do not take them seriously. I will continue not to take them seriously.

For example: if the church has long rejected doing X (both explicitly in its writings and consistently in its practice) and if modern acceptance of it is nearly universal, and I come to make this point, it is clearly beyond the scope of this blog for me to insinuate my personal views. My views, my assent to the conclusions of my forebears, are irrelevant. What we have had here are some guests who wish for me to speculate about how the church could have been wrong, or how X might have become harmless over the centuries, or how church fathers might have been incorrect, or how proponents of defective worship should be acceptable because they were “famous for trusting Jesus”.

This is silliness.

(There is a reason I find syllogisms useful: they clarify our thinking.)

We have had people speculating about some very strange things for no reason other than to find a pretext for their objections. Some demand to know my entire Theory of Art. Remonstrans is not for them, they just don’t know it yet.

We have been considering for a little time now a kind of “dump” for this sort of participant: to your right you will notice a category called Landfill. We may have to implement that for those who persist in ignoring the essential purpose of this blog. Till then, please take the blustering illiterates for what they are: an intrusion. Think of them as dusty exhibits in oak cabinets with beveled glass and brass hinges: examples of the sort of objections one can expect to find in the local churches we minister in.

As we said in the past, we are not offering a solution, we don’t think there is a solution. But we do know there are still people in the ministry (or who are preparing for it) who need to serve the Lord in this irreparable state of affairs.

We speak to them first.

I hope that puts everything in a clearer context.

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Comments, Trackbacks, Pingbacks:

1 Comment from: Unk [Visitor]
So you would move the long, tedious and otiose commentary into the landfill? That sounds like a plan worth implementing!
PermalinkPermalink 09/19/05 @ 18:14
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2 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Well, I'd rather honest conversation could prevail, and that need never happen.
PermalinkPermalink 09/19/05 @ 18:26
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3 Comment from: Scott Aniol [Visitor] · http://www.scottaniol.com
I commend you for speaking to those "in the ministry (or who are preparing for it) who need to serve the Lord in this irreparable state of affairs." You also state that you think there is no solution to. So what, then, is your goal in speaking to said individuals? I want to know, because I am one of them who is listening.
PermalinkPermalink 09/19/05 @ 18:35
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4 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
What is my goal? Well, I have many hopes. Some things can be accomplished, others not.

At the very lowest, I would like for some to simply grasp the essential difference between what we have and what we need. I think, (I know), serious people can listen to artists like Cyndia Sieden or Sara Mingardo sing John Antes or JSB and be moved. They can be made to see a reality they never knew.

Serious music is not just a “style”; it is true. Pop music is not just a “style”; it is false to everything the Bible says is important.

When I was in Colorado I made friends with two native Coloradans, Pillsbury grads; they taught with my wife. They were outdoor types through and through. The four of us hiked, camped and shutterbugged together; he and I cross-country skied and went snow-caving. I couldn’t imagine a less likely pair to go hear, of all things, a string quartet concert. We had nearly front-row seats at CU to hear the Takács Quartet do several things, including a Bartók quartet. Pretty heavy sledding for newbies. I pushed nothing on them; I explained what they could not know, translated a little Italian, and told them that when they saw scherzo, they could expect a joke.

For the first time they got some notion of why “classical music” is loved. I know that it is not just my disposition to like long-hair music that is at issue; what is true for a kid from Brooklyn, NY is true for two kids from Leadville, CO. That’s how God made the world.

But I think one has to see the real thing; this epiphany does not come when a bible college student tries to play Liszt at her piano recital.

So. First, I’d like to see a real grasp of the difference between serious and pop music. I think that is where it has to start. Kids will bring rubbish into the church because they don’t know it’s rubbish.

Of course, the minute I say that, it becomes obvious that that is going to fix nothing: when kids go off to Wheaton or Maranatha, what will they see? They will see the typical evangelical fare: religious pop. They will either be exasperated by the incongruity, or they will meekly go along with the status quo. That’s why I said earlier, our institutions are against us. Those institutions don’t produce Mingardos and MacAfees. They can’t.

Second, having raised kids who know what is beautiful and what can touch the kneeling heart, I think they need someone to help them over the inevitable hurdles they’ll face. Most kids are better than I was: most don’t go off to college and sleep through the 115th chapel sermon that semester on Romans 12:1-2, and when the music man asks them to play in chapel, they won’t tell the man they have to get back to the dorm to check for mold.

I’m not condoning arrogance, I’m saying the weak-willed need not apply. That is why I say,

Third, we have to teach our kids how to think. We train them—or think we train them—to reject what their evolution professor tells them, we don’t even try to train them to reject what our song leaders or youth pastors tell them. Ninety-nine times out of 100, all they get at church is an anti-rock lecture.

I don’t think this is going to happen on any scale like the Reformation, but think about it: God can send a reformation when he’s ready, what he demands now is worshippers.

So far we’ve failed to produce those in sufficient numbers to have “worship services”. To use Kaplan’s words, we must have people in the pew who know (and are willing) to reject what is sentimental and narcissistic. I think we have to stop trying to fix small problems like changing a culture and tackle the big ones, like making obedient creatures.

After all, it’s only worship of the holy one of Israel.
PermalinkPermalink 09/19/05 @ 21:25
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5 Comment from: todd mitchell [Member] Email · http://withtearsoppressed.blogspot.com/
This a daunting task:
Third, we have to teach our kids how to think. We train them—or think we train them—to reject what their evolution professor tells them, we don’t even try to train them to reject what our song leaders or youth pastors tell them.
I'm trying to train my teenager how to reject the teaching (especially the implicit teaching) of a youth pastor, and I have a growing unease.
  1. Is it possible for me to teach the significance of a difference while demonstrating that the difference is not significant enough to break fellowship, or by staying in fellowship do I contradict myself?
  2. Is it possible for me to teach that a difference is vitally important without teaching that division in the church is acceptable (since we continually walk along the edge of the chasm of division, pointing to it and talking about it frequently, yet we never walk away)?


I fret about division in the church, look for a way out, see none, and keep going back for more only to find myself in the same quandary time and again.
PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 06:06
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6 Comment from: Anonymous [Visitor]
I agree that the church has problems and that there has been a marked decline. You articulate those problems better than I can. But I still have unanswered questions that make it hard for me to understand what bothers you most. For brevity, I'll ask just two questions now.

First, you say "We do not oppose the philistines because they hold different views from ours. We oppose them because they oppose the view of the historic Church." It would help me to understand if you could place the historic church to which you refer within a particular century(ies). In other words, when you say "historic" are you referring to the church of the reformers, the church in Spurgeon's day, the first century churches of the apostles, or ....

Second, you refer to "the rejection of the Church of Rome, the Church of England and Modernisma" and later say "[t]he church today is more profoundly wrong than it has ever been, and it no longer has a commonly accepted standard of what is good, true and beautiful." I can accept (and would agree) with the second half of the sentence, but am having problems with the first. Are you saying that today's church, because its worship is admittedly "less serious" is "more profoundly wrong" than the Roman Catholic church from which Luther broke? Or, more profoundly wrong than the Church of England in its heyday? Or, more profoundly wrong than the modernist churches who denied such important doctrines as inspiration, virgin birth, bodily resurrection, etc.? Help me understand because I can't tell whether you are engaging in hyperbole in order to make a valid point (i.e., worship is important and has markedly declined) or whether you believe that proper worship trumps doctrine and good music is more important than doctrinally-sound preaching. Maybe this is your position; maybe proper worship subsumes (and must include) proper doctrine and preaching. I realize that they don't have to be mutually exclusive, but, if it is your belief that worship is more important than doctrine and good music more important than sound preaching, I assume that you formed those views after careful study of scripture, and it would help me it you could explain your position in that regard based on scripture rather than by appeals to the writers you mention in earlier posts. (Or, alternatively, direct me to where those writers explain their position based on scripture).

I really am not trying to be argumentative but I really don't get (although I want to). Not to be unnecessarily redundant, you are making some headway in convincing me that a proper conception of the good and beautiful is important and is a proper part of Biblical worship. The problem is that, in making your point, I'm drawing the impression that worship has to trump other important things. You may be right, but that - to me - is not something I've thought much about (my fault admittedly). To state my dilemma differently, I believe scripture teaches I should go to church and fellowship with other believers. In choosing a church, how should I choose if I only have two options as follows: (1) an evangelical church with modern praise choruses and sound, Biblical expositional preaching by a seminary-trained preacher who believes the Bible, or (2) a mainline church with professional musicians singing/playing high quality JSB music, but only a 5-10 minute sermonette that is usually not based explicitly on scripture and is delivered by a man who doesn't believe in the resurrection? I have opted for (1), but as I read your arguments, Dissidens, I honestly believe you'd have me opt for (2) - and, if that's so, I really want to understand why. If it's not, I simply need to understand your thinking better and I guess that will come with time, either as you respond to this post, or as I continue to return to this blog or as I begin to read some of your recommended materials (and I do plead guilty to not having read your recommended resources yet, although in that regard, I recently ordered Amazon's last copy of Ideas Have Consequences, but it has not yet arrived.)

Thanks for hearing me out.
PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 06:56
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7 Comment from: lilrabbi [Visitor]
"Are you saying that today's church, because its worship is admittedly "less serious" is "more profoundly wrong" than the Roman Catholic church from which Luther broke?"

Is it possible to be right about God (in our worship) and wrong about salvation? Is it possible to be totally wrong about God (in our worship) but right about salvation?

It is sad that songs of the unregenerate hearts of that day brought forth music that more accurately represented God than the music of today's regenerates. This seems odd, but I can't escape the truth of it.
PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 07:22
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8 Comment from: Can't Say [Visitor]
Dissidens - you said "In fact, I started my own blog for that purpose when this one began just so I could remain single-minded here. But Remonstrans dominated my spare time, so the world is stumbling along without my help right now."

I can't tell from the language quoted whether or not you (still) have a blog in addition to Remonstrans. If you do, do you mind sharing a link? Thanks.

PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 09:06
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9 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
Since my opinions are respected and valued here, and everyone always wants to know more of them, I'll venture another:

The "Landfill" concept is actually very clever and would be a good idea, especially if the dumped comment is replaced by some sort of a notation that a "comment by DGus [or whoever] has been dumped into Landfill".
PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 09:16
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10 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Todd:

The first thing I would take issue with is your premise that there should never be division in the church. Reformers, Dissenters and Fundamentalists know that can’t always be true. (But I am sensitive to your distaste for it.) Both of us, many of us, have grown up with the either/or expectation you mention.

A little story: I was required to attend a fundy church where my wife was teaching. [Yah, yah, I know; I won’t make that mistake again.] I was on campus after school to pick her up, was walking by the fellowship hall which had a piano and a boy in it, the kid was playing a catchy theme to a TV show, a simple phrase of parallel thirds…may have been Hill Street Blues, I didn’t know the show, just recognized the bumper music. The youth pastor walked by, gave him a dirty look, and shook his head and made the kid stop playing. In later years we came to learn that this clown, who, by the way, established a reputation within the membership for buying his wife flowers every Friday, was a wife-beater.

Now, I know one bad example is not an argument. I also know that this sort of hypocrisy is not uncommon, and corruption has a way of corrupting. We tend to be misreaders of our history, and we tend to come down on the “right side” of the last theological battle. What we must remember is that a church is not something God set up to produce good doctrinal statements; it is a fellowship of saints who gather regularly for, primarily among other things, worship. Evangelicals will hide behind separation or evangelism the way scoundrels hide behind the flag.

This is one reason I liken our situation to those watersheds of the past: there comes a point where the faithful view their circumstance and say, “Houston, we have a problem.”

Of course all churches are not equally extreme in their hypocrisy; that is why, along with differences in conscience, this has to be a judgment call. As for your two points, I do think it is possible to 1) teach that there are all sorts of important differences, some of which are important but not dispositive; and 2) that division is undesirable, but sometimes unavoidable. I think it is possible to say, “Son, this is an issue: we will not condone this nonsense, but for these reasons—and make your best case—we will not abandon this fellowship of believers.” Or, you may find yourself compelled to go where you can be warmed and fed.

Believe me, I know “that’s easy to say, but that’s no answer”. I agree, I think this is a real frustration. It reminds me of Matthew 9 is it? where the Pharisees challenge Jesus three separate times, Jesus views the people and is moved with compassion that they are sheep without a shepherd and he sends out his Twelve. Staggering moment in history: Matthew has made the point that the sheep (including even some goats) recognize Jesus’ authority, but the shepherds are busy rejecting the Messiah, so God himself is sending out men to finish the work.

I believe our situation is that desperate. We should do what Jesus did.

I myself have come to the conclusion that God is sovereign over all those things I wish to “fix”, however obnoxious; what I am not permitted to do is worship him in a way that is offensive to both of us.

“Let the thanks we bring to you bring pleasure to your ears.” ---BWV 63
PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 11:21
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11 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Anon & lilrabbi:

First, by “the historic church” I don’t mean any particular point in time as though it represents some golden age. I mean that we should be guided by the consensus of belief, that body of doctrine formed over centuries of conflict with theological error. We should not be reinventing the wheel. We should be taking the results of those historic acts of theological distinction and identification, whether by the Reformers, Anabaptists, Separatists. . . and passing those down much like stare decisis.

You don’t have to be Reformed to accept the truth of the solas, you don’t have to be a Baptist to recognize the legitimacy of believer’s baptism, you don’t have to be a Fundamentalist to practice separation from theological liberalism. . . .

By “more profoundly wrong” I mean it is wrong at such a profound level that remedy seems impossible. The Reformers, the Dissenters and the Fundamentalists had a metaphysical home, they had some intellectual ground on which to act. Now, I know fundamentalists believe they still have theirs, and generally they are more easily persuaded of this idea by giving examples of neo-evangelical wickedness. I just encourage them to examine themselves disinterestedly.

Case in point: WCTS is having its sharathon. Yesterday Kevin Bauder came on and identified himself as the president of the seminary and therefore the president of the radio station; he called what WCTS broadcasts “God-honoring Christian music”. Fine. Let’s accept that for the sake of argument. At 3:42 p.m. I heard a rendition of Brighten The Corner done as a cheap imitation of a Scott Joplin rag. (Maybe Whitehead can burn you a copy.) Ok, fine; let’s accept that, for the sake of argument, as God-honoring. Why is not this principle universally applied? Why do these people object to the Rolling Stones or Kiss?

This is not a smart-aleck question. Try to answer it. There is a profound inconsistency here; the lines between God-honoring and not God-honoring are capriciously drawn. I have my understanding of why this is, but I will not offer it here so as to prejudice the argument.

But think about it.

What I will say here in this context is that what we have are conditions which cannot be remedied by an appeal to what is good, true, and beautiful. This is exactly why the Fundy church has worship dilemmas as does the Ev’al church. They have succumbed to the same error, they just have different target demographics.

Neither is calling what is good good, or what is true true, or what is beautiful beautiful. We don’t even live in that world anymore. If we accept one songster because she is famous for trusting Jesus, then why don’t we accept all the famous people who trust Jesus?

That is why I say we are “profoundly wrong”: this out-of-joint, misidentified problem is not going to disappear.

[Let me say here, for the more sensitive visitor who may not know: I am not attacking Bauder just for the sake of attacking Bauder. I cite this as an instance because a) I’ve known him and his views for a long time, I’m not naming some anonymous devil off in faraway MN who said a few things recently; b) he has declared himself publicly on these matters, specifically identifying form&function as his rationale; c) fundamentalists have no problem seeing these faults in neo-evangelicals, this brings it closer to home; d) WCTS is available to most all of us via the web, I don’t have to speak theoretically about something we can’t all sample; e) this whole discussion we are having on Remonstrans would not exist if we all felt we could pack the kids in the car and find meaningful worship in a fundamentalist environment; f) Bauder is now a fundamentalist and will certainly recognize the salutary effects of naming public error publicly. : ) ]

But back to the point: if WCTS can play Joplin-like music as God-honoring, why can’t I play Piazzolla-like music? I like them both, both are fun, both came from the brothel. I don’t see the problem! And we can both just ignore Neoclassical’s complaints, shall we? What right does she have to deny us the worship “we can relate to”?

This is the problem: the church has become a bunch of contending minorities, each demanding its slice of the pie, its place on the podium. You like Crosby, I like Bernard; let’s fight. You like Joplin, I like Piazzolla; let’s fight.

We fight because we cannot resolve the problem. We are “profoundly wrong”.

As for your last paragraph, Anon. I am suggesting that the problem is not as simple as your 1) and 2). I do not demand JSB for worship, ask anyone who knows me: I never have. I love it, I prefer it, I think it is best. But again, I am not arguing for harpsichord worship.

I may not prefer it, but I will take true, intentional, worship on drums and electric guitar and someone sucking on a microphone. You may see me in the back with David and Faber and Bernard pining for the old days when musicians had some skill, but the distinction we make is between what is good and true and beautiful as opposed to what is parochial, fleeting and entertaining.


P.S. I don’t consider your questions argumentative, so don’t sweat it.
PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 11:22
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12 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Can't Say:

Well, the blog is still there, it was abandoned months ago, partly cuz I didn't have the time I thought I'd have, partly because the service provider was so bad ppl couldn't access it.

You can, if Vizaweb cooperates, get on at dissidens.com.
PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 11:34
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13 Comment from: todd mitchell [Member] Email · http://withtearsoppressed.blogspot.com/
Thanks for your response Dissidens. It is helpful and very encouraging.

Every hear Hillary Hahn play Bach's Partitas on her violin?
PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 14:53
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14 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
I'm not sure that I have heard Hahn's Bach. I may have heard a few movements in the truck before the announcer could identify her. It sounded like her playing.
PermalinkPermalink 09/20/05 @ 15:14
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15 Comment from: todd mitchell [Member] Email · http://withtearsoppressed.blogspot.com/
Sorry, it is Hilary, not Hillary. I'm enjoying this one from the library.
PermalinkPermalink 09/21/05 @ 13:09
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16 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Do you like it? Do you have a standard of comparison? What do you think makes her worth hearing?
PermalinkPermalink 09/21/05 @ 15:20
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17 Comment from: Amiga 500 [Visitor]
I see Fanny Crosby has come up again in this post. On an earlier thread Dissidens questioned DGus's characterization of Crosby as a woman "famous for trusting Jesus."

We are fortunate that A.W. Tozer, who is often invoked by the proprietor of this space, did in fact mention Crosby at least once in his writings:

Church history is clear. Jesus Christ has always had devoted, adoring followers who found it possible to love their Savior and Lord with all their hearts and minds and souls. If so-called evangelicals can now speak lightly about these “evangelical mystics,” we must conclude that truth in our day has taken a cruelly cynical twist.

Those evangelical mystics have been a potent force for God and for the Word of God. You will have to count Moses, David, Isaiah, John and Paul among them. You will have to count Augustine, Luther and the Wesleys. You will have to add Lady Julian, Fanny Crosby, Francis Faber, Brother Lawrence, A.B. Simpson and a mighty host of other men and women whose greatest delight in life was the rapturous love of God in their souls! (Jesus Is Victor, p. 73)
PermalinkPermalink 09/21/05 @ 21:36
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18 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Close, but no cigar.

We have four proprietors and one proprietress, but I speak only for myself.

As I recall, Crosby’s name first came up in our discussion a while back, prompted by a conversation I found elsewhere on the web, wherein there was a comparison of the merits of Fanny Crosby and Bernard of Clairvaux.

How others may have taken that exchange I cannot say.

What Tozer does in Jesus Is Victor (page 72 in my copy) is name Fanny Crosby in a list with other people he considered “mystics”. Given his understanding of the term, (I think nowhere more clearly explained than in his introduction to The Christian Book of Mystical Verse *) I would take no exception to his including her in that number.

So far as I recall, none of the members here ever criticized Fanny Crosby for being a mystic. Those judgments I have seen addressed the quality of her work. I certainly criticize no one for being a mystic. St. John is my favorite NT writer and I have long valued the minds of many mystics, even those like Meister Eckhart who scared my theology profs. I loved The Cloud of Unknowing while still a tyke.

It is interesting to notice, as well, that when Tozer chose exemplary poetry of the mystics, he did not include anything by Fanny Crosby. He conceded that given the portability he desired for this collection, it did not represent all of the “true gold of Ophir”. We might surmise that he would have included her eventually.

I suspect her contributions would have cropped up along about Vol. XVII, perhaps in a footnote.

This of course is a judgment call, but my point is that one can be a good mystic and one can be a bad mystic. I think Crosby falls below the middle. And I still believe that Crosby will always lose in a comparison to Bernard of Clairvaux.


__________________
* The Christian Book of Mystical Verse, A.W. Tozer, Christian Publications, 1963. [No ISBN number]
PermalinkPermalink 09/21/05 @ 21:55
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19 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
Dear Amiga: That is very interesting. I didn't know that Tozer had endorsed Fanny Crosby so warmly. It doesn't surprise me, though. Tozer gave high praise to the hymn texts (if not the tunes) of A.B. Simpson (also mentioned in your quotation) and was friends with the hymn writer Margaret Clarkson (her most famous song: "So Send I You"). Tozer wrote a foreword for one of Clarkson's books of poetry ("Clear Shining After Rain"). According to this source-- http://www.wheaton.edu/learnres/ARCSC/collects/sc33/bio.htm --Clarkson's "Literary favorites include John and Charles Wesley" and a bunch of other solid persons "and Fanny Crosby". One gets the sense, from the company he kept, that Tozer's taste in Church music might have been weighed in the balance and found wanting here at Remonstrans.

Dear Dissidens: In this context, what does "Close, but no cigar" mean?--

That the quotation is a hoax? (It does seem almost too ironic to be true.)

That Tozer's approbation of Fanny Crosby isn't adequate to acquit her of the charge of un-seriousness and cultural "apostasy"?
PermalinkPermalink 09/21/05 @ 22:57
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20 Comment from: DGus [Visitor]
In your expanded comment (#18), you answered my question (in #19) before I could even post it. Very accommodating. Prescient, even. You say the quotation is authentic, but Tozer's comments about Fanny Crosby don't require any reassessment or correction of what you have said about her.

As I recall, no one here ever said Fanny Crosby could compare to Bernard (though Tozer came close), so I don't recall your having any occasion to resist that comparison. I think I'm the lone Fanny-defender, and all I have said is that she has her humble place in Christian worship, and that it is unbecoming to disparage a lady "famous for trusting Jesus". I think that phrase amused you, because you quoted it several times as if it were funny: You said, "DGus, you are a real hoot. '...famous for trusting Jesus' is she? Wow; I guess if she’s famous for trusting Jesus I’ll have to rethink this whole notion of proper and acceptable worship." http://remonstrans.net/index.php/2005/09/09/lemgnota_benel_emg#c1072 Likewise, when I said "we should pursue excellence ... without treating as 'apostasy' the failings and foibles of the likes of Fanny Crosby", you replied, "Yah, Fanny Crosby. That would be the one famous for trusting Jesus, would it?" http://remonstrans.net/index.php/2005/09/09/lemgnota_benel_emg#c1075 And in the principal post above, you objected to the idea that "proponents of defective worship should be acceptable because they were 'famous for trusting Jesus'." Maybe it was a quaint phrase; I'll see if I can come up with a different phrase the next time.

I think, however, that it's a pretty fair summary of Tozer's comment that Fanny Crosby was, well, famous for trusting Jesus. What Tozer specifically said was that we "have to add ... Fanny Crosby" to the list of "evangelical mystics" who were "devoted, adoring followers who found it possible to love their Savior and Lord with all their hearts and minds and souls", who were "a potent force for God and for the Word of God", and "whose greatest delight in life was the rapturous love of God in their souls!" (Exclamation point in original.) You are of course entitled to your own opinion that, as a mystic, Fanny Crosby "falls below the middle"; I might be tempted to agree with you; but A.W. Tozer, on the other hand, when he wrote a paragraph naming fourteen mystics, thought to name Fanny Crosby in a most impressive list.
PermalinkPermalink 09/21/05 @ 23:40
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21 Comment from: kamelda [Member] Email
'For example: if the church has long rejected doing X (both explicitly in its writings and consistently in its practice) and if modern acceptance of it is nearly universal, and I come to make this point, it is clearly beyond the scope of this blog for me to insinuate my personal views. My views, my assent to the conclusions of my forebears, are irrelevant. What we have had here are some guests who wish for me to speculate about how the church could have been wrong, or how X might have become harmless over the centuries, or how church fathers might have been incorrect, or how proponents of defective worship should be acceptable because they were “famous for trusting Jesus”.'

This is as rigourously reasoned and laudably noble as Don Quixote's attack on the windmills. He was also a great advocate of tradition.

Dissidens' personal views are insinuated, in that he takes 'tradition' to be the standard by which other worship is judged to be defective and unacceptable. The same kind of thing was said to Martin Luther, when he wanted to quibble about such little subjectives as whether a tradition was objectively right or wrong.

This is the kind of sloppy logic I have come to expect on this site, and that most of the readers seem to readily swallow. I, like they, admit my need of a teacher.

But I cannot take as some sort of expert, someone who can read all of Charles Williams and still say, "I see love, but no holiness".

Such a statement demonstrates that he sees neither. How then can he see God? He does not even see Charles Williams.

The last time we interacted, the bold claim was made that God is dealing with the faults of His people "as best He can." Indeed I believe God has been demeaned on this site as fully as in the works of Fanny Crosby. And I am very serious.

I have been privileged to know scholars-- people who not only listen to masses but read the poets and make their jokes in Latin, who not only read their New Testaments in Greek, but Aeschylus in very old and difficult Attic; people who have spent their lives learning music, and can make three notes do what a whole sonata cannot, in the hands of people who have spent their lives taking lessons; people who can tell you whether or not "The cow is there"; people who have immersed themselves in church history and tradition, and could show up anybody crying "tradition!" for a fool in three sentences of cold, hard data if they chose. But they do not choose very often. Even when pressed, they do not blunder into misstatements about God. They would never denigrate the value of the cross to score a point. They are far too interested in writing accurate treatises to write inaccurate blogs. This is the kind of excellence I want in my teachers.

Go play Sancho Panza if you must: I prefer to yip at the heels of someone who will call a windmill a windmill, and recognizes a Benedictine when he sees one.

It is better to bear all things and believe all things and hope all things and endure all things than to speak with the tongues of men and of angels. But Don Quixote does neither....
PermalinkPermalink 09/23/05 @ 14:31
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22 Comment from: David [Member] Email
I read a description of Mexican women.
Imagine a pretty, pleasant, warm-blooded young woman who doesn’t snarl, grouse, demand anything, or sue. Often bright and quirky, they run to domesticity, jealousy, and tranquility. Americans married to them do not complain.


Now, I admit the guy who gave the description was not a believer, but he gave a fairly close description of the woman that Paul describes the older women in the Church should teach the younger women to be like.

It seems many Christian women these days are the antithesis of this description...ie snarling, grousing, demanding, and definitely not given to tranquility.

One wonders who is teaching them that this is the proper way for a woman to conduct herself? It is definitely not one of those right-wing extremist nuts that actually believes what scripture teaches. How dare they believe that old-fashioned nonsense anyway?

PermalinkPermalink 09/23/05 @ 14:49
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23 Comment from: kamelda [Member] Email
http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=1464

I wasn't grousing. I was laughing at you.

If something is ridiculous, and wrong, surely women are allowed to find it so, as well as men? I assume that even you would agree that the most pretty and pleasant woman might laugh at some of the lyrics of Fanny Crosby?

Thank you for the reminder, of what Christian women ought to be. I agree, wholeheartedly.
PermalinkPermalink 09/23/05 @ 15:03
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24 Comment from: David [Member] Email
Yes, even I would agree women are people too.
PermalinkPermalink 09/23/05 @ 15:12
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25 Comment from: DGus [Member] Email
Dear David: I assume Kamelda is your wife. Congratulations--or condolences, or whatever is called for. However, can I ask that you take your domestic dispute back home, and not play it out here in public? Wifely insubordination is very unfortunate. The New Testament is quite clear in telling wives to submit to "YOUR OWN HUSBANDS". (Eph 5:22; 1 Peter 3:1, 5.)

What? She's NOT your wife? Then why are you effectively demanding that ANOTHER man's wife submit to YOU? You were alluding to Titus 2, right? Verse 5 says, again, that the women should be "subject to THEIR OWN husbands." Is your post then just a put-down? That would be both disrespectful and an evasion of the substance of the comment in favor of a mere AD HOMINEM attack (or, in this case, an AD FEMINAM attack). Tsk-tsk.

Dear Kamelda: More bad-mouthing of Fanny Crosby? Alas. I guess it's too late to dig up her corpse and defile it, so this detraction is all you can do.
PermalinkPermalink 09/23/05 @ 16:38
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26 Comment from: kamelda [Member] Email
DGus,

I agree with Tozer's assessment of Crosby. But I separate my personal assessment of her from some of her hymns.

I realise that I cannot hold a candle to her in things that matter tremendously with God. But in trying to emulate those things about her, I cannot condone her errors. And we all have them.

I hope that clarifies: I do not mean to revile what is worthy.
PermalinkPermalink 09/23/05 @ 16:57
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27 Comment from: DGus [Member] Email
Kamelda: Well, that's a very decent answer. I hope it was clear that I was using hyperbole. You know--humor, and all that.

Maybe your standards are higher than mine, and/or maybe I don't know the silliest of her songs, but the ones I think of seem harmless to me, and a couple of them are even downright good. (I have in mind "All the Way My Savior Leads Me", which I previously quoted on another thread. If you have a terrible counter-instance in mind that would make us all cringe, please have pity and spare me the discomfort. I'll take your word for it.)
PermalinkPermalink 09/23/05 @ 17:06
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28 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
I shall keep a list; perhaps a helpful pattern will emerge.

Lone Ranger
Stalin
Hitler
Elijah
4th Person of the Godhead
Don Quixote
PermalinkPermalink 09/23/05 @ 19:51
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29 Comment from: David [Member] Email
DGus You are asking me to submit to you in this matter. I assume you are my Pastor. I need condolences. The scripture says to submit to those "in authority" over you.

What? You are not in authority over me? Then why don't you shut up or take it private. I'll submit to those in authority over me and you aren't it.

But, as to the real matter, I merely made an observation as to how Christian women are to conduct themselves, or do you think Paul should not have written it, as if women should submit to him, instead of their own husbands.
It was a general reminder as given and it was accepted as such by others. I asked noone to submit to me, but suggested women should submit to scripture. What is your objection to this? I will refrain from attributing motives to you, as I find your practice of doing it objectionable. But it sure does peak one's curiosity why you would object to a woman conducting herslf as scripture teaches.
PermalinkPermalink 09/24/05 @ 01:12
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30 Comment from: DGus [Member] Email
David: It's possible I misunderstand your post (#22) to Kamelda, so correct me as you will.

You were not reminding her of her wifely duty to be submissive to her husband. (She had shown no signs whatsoever of such non-submission.) Rather, you seemed to be invoking un-cited Pauline instruction about how women are to behave generally. Kamelda had just objected to various ideas in the comments of a man, and you seemed to be saying that a woman shouldn't do that. But Paul's instruction to which you alluded (and Peter's as well) is that a woman should submit to her own husband. That NT teaching simply isn't relevant to her dealings with other men. There is no Scriptural teaching that says, "Women should just generally shut up when the men are talking."

Again, if I have mischaracterized your comment (#22) or if you think I'm overlooking the actual passages you had in mind, then I'm ready to be corrected.
PermalinkPermalink 09/24/05 @ 07:02
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31 Comment from: David [Member] Email
I was, I thought obviously, commenting on tone and not substance.
PermalinkPermalink 09/24/05 @ 17:25
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32 Comment from: neoclassical [Member] Email
dissidens,

Sorry this is kind of late, but every once in a while I check your other blog to see if you have added anything.

Maybe you should post poetry there?
PermalinkPermalink 09/25/05 @ 20:42
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33 Comment from: todd mitchell [Member] Email · http://withtearsoppressed.blogspot.com/
I have nothing to which I can compare Hilary Hahn's performance, unfortunately. The only time I have savored Bach on the violin is the Morimur derivation. I have read reviews of Hahn's performance that criticize her for being "robotic" but until I hear more, I can neither agree nor disagree with such critiques.

I find this CD worth listening to because 1. it is Bach (I could elaborate on that one), 2. it is violin, and I love violin, 3. it is violin, and I really need to learn more about the violin, 4. she sounds like a skilled performer, though I of course have no right to say much about that, and 5. the notes in the CD describe in Hahn's own words her affection for Bach's music, which makes her a good egg.
PermalinkPermalink 09/26/05 @ 00:31
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34 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Neoclassical,

Yes, it isn’t for lack of material: the old provider just couldn’t handle our volume. I’m afraid that to use it would be to invite frustration.

For as long as I can remember, I have been dogmatically anti-frustrationist.
PermalinkPermalink 09/26/05 @ 15:01
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