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In Reply To Kevin Corcoran

04/30/08

Permalink 03:52:39 am, by dissidens Email , 1100 words, 3080 views   English (US)
Categories: Old Main

In Reply To Kevin Corcoran

Mr. Corcoran is feeling somewhat out of sorts because he supposes we have not accorded his thinkings the respect he feels they deserve.

I should probably set the record straight on a few things.

First, we did accord his thinkings all the respect they deserve. He has misjudged the worth of his thoughts and now he blames us for being disrespectful.

Second, he claims that I removed a comment of his. This is false; I removed nothing. One of our four other administrators removed it (and I didn't ask who). [It was comment #5018.] On the one hand I regret that. It is in my personal interest to let stand everything these Emergents say, I think it reveals what is in their hearts, and when they blather on and on about allowing free discussion and honest conversation, I very much want people to hear what they say and how they say it. And what environment they want for this conversation. That in fact is why I post their blatherings here and it's why I link to their intellectual landfills.

That's on one hand. On the other hand what Mr. Corcoran wrote was offensive and inconsistent with the "engagement" he supposes is a virtue. It offended someone here and he or she (probably living in a red state!) chose not to play host to the rubbish. For those who may be visiting from another blog or those who may not have seen his comment, it consisted of nothing more than three sentences. The first—in reply to comment #5017—was "I see." The second was a suggestion that I go masturbate privately, and the third sentence was: "Enjoy."

Not one of those sentences advanced the conversation a single millimeter—or "mm" as we in the medical profession like to refer to it.

I say that it is in my interest to allow such crude talk to stand because it reveals the heart of the speaker. I feel that the New Testament requires me not to talk like that, but it doesn't require me to censor someone else. By the same token my interests shouldn't constrain some other administrator's sense of what is desirable on a blog he or she is a part of. Sorry, Kev.

Third, I go to the trouble of telling everyone this because one of his points was that we lack an "interest in engagement". Just let the record reveal exactly what profound contribution of his, what example of a "commitment to engagement", was removed.

Fourth, I should also clarify another misunderstanding. He resented being called a half-wit and sophomoric. Those were not intended to be derogatory at all. I was trying to be complimentary! (This could perhaps be one of those glass-half-full/glass-half-empty things.)

Halfwit of course comes from the Latin hemiintellectus.

But this fourth point introduces an issue that does deserve some time and perhaps debate. I have said this previously; perhaps it bears repetition now.

What we have in this particular instance with Corcoran, as well as in this alleged emergent "conversation", is not a conversation at all. Saying something really stupid or false, such as what Brian McLaren says about homosexuality or what Tony Jones says about truth or what Kevin Corcoran says about sexuality being aimed at the eschaton is rubbish.  I know it is rubbish, you know it is rubbish, bystanders know it is rubbish. And to accept it as though it has meaning in the real world is not conversation. It does not call for "engagement" at all. It invites laughter.

It is permissible to utter nonsense, but no one is obligated to accept it as meaningful or pretend something useful has been added to the conversation.

Conversation, for those who haven't heard, is not merely a sequence of alternating assertions. If someone says something that is false and nonsensical, the purpose of conversation is at risk until the correction is made. "Commitment to dialog" or "engagement" is not indifference to lunacy or acceptance of impromptu nonsense.

This is why emergents cannot "converse" with the MacArthurs, the Sprouls, the Mohlers, the Carsons....

This is exactly what we saw Monday with Tony Jones and Marie: "the perfect church" has become a place where you "can sit around and say whatever you want". I think it is worth our hearing them say this. The perfect church is where you sit around and say whatever you want; everyone can do theology.

What we have here are mere dabblers. Corcoran doesn't know what secare means, nor does he know what the eschaton is, nor was he able to establish a connection between the two that justifies "engagement". And now he wants to call it "semantic plasticity".

Isn't that sweet?

__________

Somehow I came across a nice folding leather carrying case. On the front it has a little transparent plastic pocket the size of a business card. The card gives a person's name, Medco Instruments, Inc., 4500 W. 137th Street, Crestwood, IL 60445. There is a caduceus at the top and the words: Carefully Produced by Skilled Craftsmen.

Inside the case are samples of medical instruments. There is a pair of four-inch bandage scissors, a pair of six-inch scissors, something that looks like a blunt dental probe, an assortment of tweezers, and—the tool that most excites my imagination and my wife's terror—a #4 scalpel.

Now the mere fact that I have these tools makes me more of a medical professional than Kevin Corcoran is a theologian. Plus I can go to SmartDraw.com and get a free download of "easy medical anatomy software".

It is my confident belief, and I'm sure Trucker Frank will back me up on this, the only difference between me and a licensed physician is a silly piece of paper.

So if you are experiencing any internal discomfort, difficulty in breathing, poor circulation, persistent loss of memory, joint pain...please come by and let me take a look at it for you. I would work on my wife but she insists she feels just fine.

I will know more about the healing arts than Kevin Corcoran knows about the eschaton. And if worse comes to worst, I will put on your chart "semantic plasticity sufferer" and refer you to a friend who has a nifty chemistry set. He has the CHEM C2000 which promises to turn ordinary occurrences into remarkable events.

Now wouldn't you want to be part of a remarkable event?

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1 Comment from: Unk [Visitor] Email
You'd think a guy styling himself an analytic philosopher would put up a better fight just to keep up appearances.
PermalinkPermalink 04/30/08 @ 05:30

Reply to comment 5034 by Unk

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2 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
I think these emergent types haven’t really thought this through.

When they jabbered on about orthopraxy being as important as orthodoxy, did they not think we would notice their heteropraxy? When they expatiated on affections over against mere rationality, did they think we wouldn’t examine their affections?

As for your point, I think academe is pretty much what Richard Mitchell told us it was: words without meaning. He would have loved “sexuality is aimed at the eschaton”.
PermalinkPermalink 04/30/08 @ 06:03

Reply to comment 5036 by dissidens

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3 Comment from: de profundis [Visitor] Email
Conversation, for those who haven't heard, is not merely a sequence of alternating assertions. If someone says something that is false and nonsensical, the purpose of conversation is at risk until the correction is made. "Commitment to dialog" or "engagement" is not indifference to lunacy or acceptance of impromptu nonsense.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
PermalinkPermalink 04/30/08 @ 06:51

Reply to comment 5038 by de profundis

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4 Comment from: blackmambaprof [Visitor] Email
Pretty tough to engage in dialogue when you don't know what words mean. And creating your own definitions is lazy, irresponsible, and sometimes harmful. It destroys the very ability to converse, which (as I understand them) is what the emergents tout as their strong suit.

Ironically, we may learn as much from emergents about how to converse as Dissidens believes that we can learn from fundamentalists about separation.
PermalinkPermalink 04/30/08 @ 08:21

Reply to comment 5039 by blackmambaprof

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5 Comment from: exlibris [Visitor] Email
Kevin C. definitely has a worm in his head.
PermalinkPermalink 04/30/08 @ 11:36

Reply to comment 5040 by exlibris

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6 Comment from: Jay C. [Visitor] Email
Sorry to post twice so soon, but I ran across this post as well I found it also raising lots of issues.

To speak about engagement is tricky. It involves a give and take between at least two people.

A: "I think that X is true"
B: "Why do you think that?
A: "Well, for reasons 1, 2, and 3"
B: "That's interesting. I see 1 and 2 differently but still find myself disagreeing with you."
....

Furthermore, it takes at least two people, and so if when someone gives an assertion and another disagrees with them, but instead of giving reason for their belief (or against the other one's belief) simply calls them names or does something non-engagatory (try and find THAT in the OED :D) with the it throws up a red flag that this opportunity for engagement is not worth pursuing.

I'm not defending Kevin for his use of the word "masturbation" and for not furthering discussion, but simply to note what makes someone frustrated to the point that they do this.

Personally, I enjoy the dialogue when I have the time between college work and having a life, so if there's a discussion to be had here, I'm all for it.


PermalinkPermalink 04/30/08 @ 13:42

Reply to comment 5042 by Jay C.

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7 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
“To speak about engagement is tricky.”

The very words I used with my first girlfriend!

“…when someone gives an assertion and another disagrees with them, but instead of giving reason for their belief (or against the other one's belief) simply calls them names or does something non-engagatory (try and find THAT in the OED :D) with the it throws up a red flag that this opportunity for engagement is not worth pursuing.”

Aside from the atrocious pronoun disagreements, a truly ugly word and a pronoun that seems to have become an article, I would agree with that statement.

You may have missed my earlier comment. Statements like Corcoran’s are not worth pursuing.

I don’t think anyone here was offended by the word (and I wasn’t even offended by his use of it, but I was born in Brooklyn and perhaps have low standards). I think someone took it to be a malicious statement offered by an inarticulate gasbag who had nothing further on his mind.

If you see Kevin, tell him to get one of those squeeze-balls. They’re great for when you’re frustrated.

I enjoy conversation when it is meaningful.
PermalinkPermalink 04/30/08 @ 18:05

Reply to comment 5044 by dissidens

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8 Comment from: Jay C. [Visitor] Email
If statements like Kevin's were not worth pursuing, then why the post? If they don't merit a response, simply leave it alone and let it die its inevitable death. Name-calling, which it appears you have done as well, does not advance a conversation further. Hopefully our conversation doesn't follow the same path...

Sidenote: I actually don't know Kevin. I'm actually just a lowly philosophy undergrad at a small liberal arts school in South Carolina who happens to be doing a final paper on Kevin's metaphysics of the body, though I have heard of him before through James K.A. Smith and when I was looking at Calvin when I was applying to college.
PermalinkPermalink 04/30/08 @ 22:30

Reply to comment 5046 by Jay C.

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9 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Sidenote first: I know.

I mean I didn’t know that you don’t know Kevin; I know and looked up your name and checked out Wofford.edu. I have some friends, some who were and some who are, in Greenville. I think it would be cool if your two universities could make war on each other. How well disciplined is your student body? I think you could take them.

Why the post?

Simple: the larger context. We were talking about this Emergent movement and its pretentions. Tony Jones. Trucker Frank. Marie. Trinket Religion.

All these novelties are worth examining as they impinge on orthodoxy. I’ve been reading Jony Tones and he linked to Kevin’s little space walk and I thought it was worth sharing with our readers. That’s slightly different from responding.

If Kevin could have responded, that would have been nice. But that was not my purpose.

These people—Emergents—have been passing assorted judgments on the traditional church and they have been touting the virtues of conversation. There has been a kind of confrontation between emergents like Jones and McLaren and traditional evangelicals like Mohler and Carson, but that didn’t interest me quite as much as this “conversation” they were talking about. I thought the Mohlers and Carsons dropped the ball on that, so I’ve been checking it out.

I was surprised to find out just how bad a bunch of conversationalists these emergents were. It’s like they had more tanks than the enemy and they decided to fight in the swamp.

So I have conversations when the opportunity arises, but I wouldn’t think of forcing a real conversation on someone as enamored of semantic plasticity as Kevin is.
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 06:16

Reply to comment 5047 by dissidens

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10 Comment from: exlibris [Visitor] Email
Time for a Radical Orthodoxy alert - an attempt to affirm the transcendant as participating in or suspending the immanant created world. For a Platonist like myself it seems a to be a revival of the old school at first glance. But, look more closely and you will find it to be an insidious doublespeak against permanent things - the via moderna in the guise of the via antiqua. Oh yes, and please remember, this is NOT a theological school, but a set of dispositions.

Interestingly enough, it seems to me to be a way of (1) affirming the supernatural and transcendant (that's really "in" these days - like books about angels as is the theurgical), (2) erasing the necessity for picky personal morals concerning fornication, masturbations, sodomy, and a host of traditional evangelical and Puritan "sins" (interestingly, adultery still seems taboo), and (3) foisting a socialistic and environmentally safe culture on humanity via universalism (although Smith's vestigial Calvinism rebels against this).

Principally a UK movement, but lately driven to these shores by James K. A. Smith - Radical Orthodoxy, Baker. British adherants: John Milbank, Graham Ward, Catherine Pickstock.
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 09:11

Reply to comment 5050 by exlibris

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11 Comment from: exlibris [Visitor] Email
Oh, and should I say, "Congratulations" to dissidens?

You have just unearthed and brought out into the open the intelligentsia of the emergent movement. Quite a stumble-upon find. Take Padgitt and Bell and view them as the cheap unintellectual peddlers of the EM. Think of them as what Billy Graham was to Fuller. Sweet and McLaren probably know more about this, but I'm not sure they are consciously injecting it into the movement.

Smith, on the other hand, aims to make RO the theological sentimentality behind the EM
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 09:18

Reply to comment 5051 by exlibris

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12 Comment from: Jay C. [Visitor] Email
Since there's only two universities in Greenville of real significance, are you refering to Bob Jones or Furman?

I admit ignorance to the wider context, as it seems clear that there's a lot going on here that I haven't been around for. For the sake of argument, I'll grant you that there are certainly some Emergent figures that have no real desire to communicate or have a conversation. So some of them, when challenged, simply say a smart-aleck comment and walk away.

I don't think Kevin C. is that kind. I've followed his blog for a while, and there have been times when he has lambasted someone (Stanley Fish) in the postmodern camp for a NY Times article that to Kevin made no sense at all. However, when he was challenged on his assertions, he didn't just give a smart-aleck comment and leave it alone: he got into conversation, even very spirited conversation with them.

Why didn't he do that here when you criticized him? Well, looking back at several of your comments, even if your criticism were valid, you came off as arrogant and condescending. I don't see any other way of interpreting a response like "Isn't that sweet?" and "Isn't that precious" as anything other than just an out of hand dismissal without any thought about the actual argument itself. I say this not as someone on high, acting as supreme judge over you. I'll even admit that right now I feel a little condescending and arrogant. But when someone's argument gets that kind of treatment, as though the only response it merits is something along the lines of "Cute...not true of course, but cute" it's hard to see any hope of dialogue.

From what I've seen so far in your dealings with me you haven't done anything like that, so I still think there's a chance for discussion here, and I definitely look forward to it.
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 09:21

Reply to comment 5052 by Jay C.

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13 Comment from: exlibris [Visitor] Email
Is this the guy?

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/philosophy/corcoran/
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 09:24

Reply to comment 5053 by exlibris

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14 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Dass him, he da one.
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 09:30

Reply to comment 5054 by dissidens

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15 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Jay:

I had Bob Jones in mind. I don’t know who I know at Furman now. I know a shrink who went there long ago.

I think Kevin is very much that sort of person, but hey, we saw him do it. I wish he could get through to Jones. Now there’s a guy I would never call a half-wit!

I suspect we have different levels of tolerance which are informed by a very different appreciation of history, and in connection with our other exchange, I suspect you don’t understand what is at risk here and the theological significance of the combat that is going on between emergents and evangelicals.

Again, I make no apology for how I dismiss people. I won’t give a long explanation here but I suggest you read how Jesus treated his antagonists. I suspect Corc wouldn’t call Christ’s behavior Christ-like—as though he is an authority on Christ-likeness. Go through the Gospel of Matthew and read carefully each confrontation Jesus had with the Pharisees, Saducees, lawyers, etc. Get an on-line copy and cut-and-paste all those passages to a separate document, and try to explain why Jesus acted as he had. It would be helpful to you.
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 11:24

Reply to comment 5055 by dissidens

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16 Comment from: Jay C. [Visitor] Email
I don't doubt that the theological stakes are incredibly high, as it is with a lot of debates. If this is weighty stuff to tackle then lets get to it. But there is a huge difference between attacking the assertions and going after the person who makes the assertions. If there's faulty arguments that are out there, then have at them vigorously.

You mention Jesus. How about Matt. 23:37 (this is right after the comment in 33 about the "brood of vipers")

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it? How often I have desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing."

Do we embody this spirit as well?
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 13:14

Reply to comment 5057 by Jay C.

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17 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email
Well, let’s see here.

Way back at the end of chapter nine and the beginning of chapter ten Jesus noted how abysmal the Jewish leadership was. Israel was like a flock without a shepherd, so Jesus sends out his 12 to do the work the Jews had bungled.

By the time we get to chapter 23 Jesus has told these scribes and Pharisees eight times what miserable wretches they were, and one of the reasons was that they had shut off the kingdom. They already had plans in effect to murder him. The text you mention depicts a moment overlooking the city and expressing regret over the city’s rejection of him. Later the leaders kill him and hound his followers mercilessly.

And you are asking if this particular verse captures a sentiment I should embody?!

I’m gonna say No.
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 15:18

Reply to comment 5059 by dissidens

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18 Comment from: Jay C. [Visitor] Email
First of all, the question was not only directed at you. "Do WE embody this spirit?" I'm asking myself that question just as much, if not more than, you.

Secondly, "Any man who wishes to follow after me must pick up his cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23). If Christ is at least a model of how to be renewed people, why shouldn't we? What's so wrong with this sentiment that you seem offended that I ask if it should be manifested in our lives?
PermalinkPermalink 05/01/08 @ 17:21

Reply to comment 5062 by Jay C.

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