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Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk

05/22/09

Permalink 05:59:03 am, by dissidens Email , 795 words, 3877 views   English (US)
Categories: Old Main

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk

A recent harangue of the brethren was delivered at a place most appropriately called "The Wilds"—and for which nothing remotely like an apology has yet been detected.  This "message" has produced grubby strife and soapy pontifications, so in that sense I suppose we could say it was a success except that the haranguer began by expressing some incoherent desire to be respected by younger preachers who are now falling under the sway of less—ummm—"intense" pulpit personalities.

The man clearly has an ironic streak.

I am virtually certain that no good will come of it. I am so convinced of this that I would be willing, if Las Vegas could set the odds, to bet my worldly all on it. I could finally close on that luxury home in an enchanted forest I promised my wife.

I actually recommend against attending the theater and getting tattoos, but since some of you will do both anyway I'd like to suggest that all you fundamentalists get at least two tats. Across the back of the fingers of your right hand you should apply the letters F E A R. On your left forearm you might consider an artful rendering of Mr. Moe Howard. Why quibble about what is a mote or what is a beam if instead you can just poke your fingers in your brother's eye in the manner so humorously depicted by Messrs. Larry, Curly and Moe?

A Fightin' Fundamentalist

No sweat, right?

About a score of great, formative voices have shaped my thinking. Some of those were preachers. One was Edmund Clowney, another was Alan Redpath. Alan Redpath believed that the most discerning question you could put to any issue was, "What is happening in this place that cannot be explained in merely human terms?"

So for the more cerebral/spiritual clergymen desirous of a tattoo, I suggest that question might be placed on the inside of the left hand for easy reference. "What is happening in this place that cannot be explained in merely human terms?" The text could be transfixed by a Cupid's Arrow if you so choose.

But of course I don't want to offer too many attractive options because I don't advise tats in the first place.

So to return to the topic: what follows is the "official" retort—or response, rather—of Dr. Vaughn, president of the fellowship that sponsored the conference, the fellowship which invited its speakers and the fellowship which takes money from its Calvinist and non-Calvinist members for questionable services rendered.

There has been a lot of interaction and discussion over the past few days related to fundamentalism, Calvinism, and how men who disagree with one another ought to express those disagreements. The FBFI has always included both Calvinists and non-Calvinists because we recognize that godly men can agree with one another on the fundamentals of the faith while disagreeing with one another in this area. In any disagreement, we must represent one another fairly and treat one another charitably. To make this a test of fellowship among fundamentalists has not been the position of the FBFI and will not be our position.

The only way we can maintain unity on the fundamentals of the faith is if we learn how to express our disagreements on other points in a way that does not damage that fellowship through unbiblical communication. We must honor our biblical responsibility to use speech that edifies and displays Christ-like love. We must demonstrate an unwavering commitment to humble integrity. Caricatures and personal attacks do not honor the Lord or advance His work. Neither pulpit nor keyboard exempt us from these biblical obligations.

I love the passivity in that first statement. "There has been a lot of interaction and discussion...", he says looking around innocently. Who knows where this comes from, how it caught on, or what foul resentment it signifies? These things are certainly a mystery to us! And by the way, we also believe men should be represented fairly and treated charitably. What all is going on out there is of deep concern to us.

Uhhh, yah, dude. Thanks for clarifying your position for us. Most helpful.

So here we have the provocateur(s) now telling everyone about fairness, charity, the advancement of the Lord's work, and biblical obligations.

Fundamentalists wonder why their star is in retrograde? No public statement is offered which is to the point, and no public statement is made of any private rapprochement. They get to instigate the fight and then scold the belligerents.

Reminds me of the episode where Moe sets the house ablaze and then scolds Larry and Curly for mishandling the fire hose.

Just keep picking at those scabs, brethren.

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1 Comment from: Watchman [Visitor] Email · http://www.watchmanswords.blogspot.com
Admiral James Cutter (Clear and Present Danger, regarding the President's directive to start an illegal war in South America): "How can he be clear when clarity is the one thing he has to avoid?"

I'm paraphrasing it a little, but that's what came to mind as I read the statement originally and then your comment on it. Taking a clear position would cost them with one wing or the other...so straddle the fence and hope the padding holds.
PermalinkPermalink 05/22/09 @ 14:43

Reply to comment 6135 by Watchman

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2 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email

Soitanly!

I take your point: clarity is not their friend. This is why I am so exercised about good men demanding clear words from one another. But this is also more than fence-sitting.

You ask a politician a direct question and he deflects it in order to tell you something he wants you to know. Pay attention to what he says because he thinks it’s an answer. He is telling us more than he knows.

This is not about Calvinism, this is not about Conservative Evangelicals, this is not even about the disaffected yutes; these issues have been floating around for years. These are merely the immediate cause of the hullaballoo.

Prescind all the feathers ‘n fur (is Jones a good man? is Bumpus a good man? is Jack Hyles a good man? is Wayne Van Gelderen a good man? is Lester Roloff a good man? is John R. Rice a good man? is Bob Gray a good man? what’s toxic about Illinois?) These attitudes merely betray the tribalism that underlies the movement; these things are most easily vented in moments like this. Instead, look at the complaint and look at the official “response”. Watch how the ball comes out of their hand!

What we witnessed was an egregious misrepresentation of the truth. Men who have read one book on Calvinism know that those charges were not worth dignifying with a response. So:

1. an intemperate, misinformed man offends many by saying something that doesn’t belong even in a freshman paper
2. a disproportionate reaction arises which reveals a long-nursed factionalism
3. the sponsoring organization makes a “statement of policy” which was flagrantly breached and no apology whatsoever is forthcoming; we merely get a “position paper”
4. some are already pretending this is a move in the right direction


What is wrong with this picture?


PermalinkPermalink 05/22/09 @ 17:55

Reply to comment 6136 by dissidens

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3 Comment from: the divine passive [Visitor] Email
I hope the server at FBFI headquarters is sturdy: I imagine a stampede of fired-up young Fundamentalists are going to be clamoring for membership in the next few weeks. Vaughn's inspired leadership makes me want to e-mail Mark Dever and smugly tell him what makes me proud to be lurking on the reluctant fringe of this movement.
PermalinkPermalink 05/22/09 @ 20:23

Reply to comment 6137 by the divine passive

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4 Comment from: Ben [Visitor] Email
the divine passive,

i'm pretty sure he already knows. maybe it's because you couldn't turn around at t4g '08 without accidentally elbowing more fundamentalists under the age of 50 than at any fbfi meeting in the same year. maybe all of them combined.
PermalinkPermalink 05/22/09 @ 20:37

Reply to comment 6138 by Ben

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5 Comment from: lilrabbi [Visitor] Email
Must I go to SI to find out what's up?
PermalinkPermalink 05/22/09 @ 22:51

Reply to comment 6139 by lilrabbi

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6 Comment from: Unk [Visitor] Email
It aint nothing new.

This is a handy link, though, with all the details compiled by Leg Grinscott:

http://sharperiron.org/2009/05/22/is-nuff-enough/

I think he put dissidens at the top because dissidens is right.

It might do to have something chronological though.

PermalinkPermalink 05/22/09 @ 23:53

Reply to comment 6140 by Unk

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7 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email

Sorry, lilrabbi.

Grinscott’s list is a fair representation of the whole conflagration--so I made it an active link in Unk’s comment; I was referring (in my comment to Watchman) more to the sort of reaction we were seeing from the blind and loyal remnant of American Fundamentalisticism. I point to the 27 pages of largely irrelevant inflamations on SI right down to the oxgoad.

As has been widely noted, this really is nothing new. This is what we geezers have known of Rod Bell’s FBFI for decades. This is a known quantity. The movement will, as always, follow its own counsel and certain politicos will, as always, try to manage the spin.

My main point as an outsider is that the fevers of the moment should not obscure the obvious conflict of expectations. There are good men and there are political men; let’s not confuse the expectations of each group. When this is all said and done there are going to be a lot of people feeling severely orphaned; now is the time to think about consequences.

As for timing, the FBFI statement had been up for a while. I got my copy early but only posted according to my MonFri schedule.
PermalinkPermalink 05/23/09 @ 05:19

Reply to comment 6141 by dissidens

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8 Comment from: Todd Mitchell [Visitor] Email · http://www.firstbaptistgranitefalls.org
The flurry of activity of late has been fairly interesting to me, since a new set of names has been put on the chopping block. I especially appreciated Dr. Bauder's initial response, and commended him for it.

But even more interesting to me is the whole notion of people "staying in" or "leaving" fundamentalism. What does it mean to "stay in" or to "leave?"

Does it have something to do with how personally interested I am in the debate, maybe? Or is it just a matter of whether you're a member of a certain club, like the FBFI? Or is it a matter of adopting certain programs? Badges?

If a pastor gives Piper's books as gifts to his congregation but dislikes most Gospel Songs as much as CCM, if he dislikes Bible Colleges, children's church, AWANA, Patch the Pirate, VBS, Summer Camp, youth programs, revival meetings, pulpit comedy, and closing invitations, is he still a Fundamentalist?

Would he still be a Fundamentalist if he separates from the world by getting the TV out of his house and homeschooling his kids, but serves a glass of wine with pasta? Shall I even ask what the answer would be if he were to take an occasional evening stroll with a fine cigar?

I'm pretty sure I know how most would answer, because I'm pretty sure I know what it really means to be a Fundamentalist.
PermalinkPermalink 05/23/09 @ 10:54

Reply to comment 6142 by Todd Mitchell

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9 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email

That is a very interesting question. By the reckoning of some, J.G. Machen was a cigar-chomping fundamentalist; in his own estimation, not so much.

I think that we now watch the testing of some novelty definitions and ad hoc rationalizations.

Linscott put a question to one group which elicited this disturbing opinion:
It is a shame that this incident is getting so much attention. We can blame the Internet and its many spiritually novice bloggers on this.
Apparently local pastors with internet access should be waiting obsequiously while prelates dither.


PermalinkPermalink 05/23/09 @ 14:10

Reply to comment 6143 by dissidens

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10 Comment from: the divine passive [Visitor] Email
Ben,

Yeah, I know. It's the smugness going in the other direction that keeps me on the reluctant fringe. I'd rather be mortally ashamed that bozos like Sweatt share my label than have to nod and smile at Campus Crusaders and listen to Sovereign Koilea "worship for the shorts-to-church generation," but that's just me!
PermalinkPermalink 05/24/09 @ 20:33

Reply to comment 6144 by the divine passive

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11 Comment from: AR [Visitor] Email · http://alanaroberts.wordpress.com
This cracks me up. I went lots of places in fundamentalism and I heard sermons far more egregious than Sweatt's all the time. He didn't even yell. How come this guy is getting so much attention?

It's hard for me not to suspect Bauder and Co. of being political about this. The reaction - as if Sweatt's sermon had really been about Calvinism, as if he'd said much about it at all or as if his statements about it had really been all that outrageous, taken as he meant them.

As if the flock were incapable of coming to any proper conclusion about Sweatt's address unless people like Bauder and Naselli go about casually referring to it as a "diatribe." Demagoguery, anyone?

Because he was not very articulate, it would be hard for me to prove this, but I think Sweatt (perhaps unwittingly) said some things that, if they were taken seriously, would threaten the very foundations of fundamentalism's raison d'etre. And his fellow fundamentalist leaders would prefer to turn this into another throw-away Calvinism debate or, if they are more savvy, an example of why they themselves are the only ones who can "save fundamentalism" - but only the version worth saving.

If I had to paraphrase Sweatt's two numbered points, I'd say: 1) Fundamentalism is incapable of keeping its young people, apart from the emergence of highly visible, highly attractive leadership, which it presently lacks, and 2) Traditionalism - holding the scriptures as interpreted by students of a theological tradition - will threaten the fundamentalist way of thinking about scripture.

(And because today's YF substitute leadership are Calvinist, and because Calvinism involves a partial return to said Traditionalism, he sees a link between these two points - a trend in a certain direction, you might say.)

Well, duh, and duh. The only way to escape these realities is for fundamentalism to mutate into something else completely - something with an altered different view of the scriptures, something that doesn't depend on magnetic leadership because it's thoroughly cerebral - all while "keeping the furniture." And naturally when an old guy who's come up in the ranks sees this happening he's going to start going about pointing and moaning. The folks presiding over the mutation don't want him taken seriously, so he's got to be thoroughly discredited, a task made all that much easier by the fact that in Sweatt's day, there was no one around to tell him that a Pastor's main job is to think. So he's not especially good at it. Back then, you were supposed to save people.

'Yes, we're murdering a man's good name near the end of a long, devoted ministry, but it's all in a good cause, folks. We're getting the young folk roused up. Nothing like torches and pitchforks to keep the youth on this side of the fence.'

Oh, and the beautiful illustration of point 1) contained in the very reaction Sweatt provoked. He dared to speak the names of today's idols (Piper et al) in comparison with yesterday's idols (now completely discredited) and despite the fact that Sweatt was actually complimentary of them to a large degree, the followers of said Piper et al are going berserk.

And then, watch said conservative evangelical idols wooing the fundamentalists ever so tenderly - the endless cycle of back-slapping links and return links.

I can't stop laughing.
PermalinkPermalink 05/29/09 @ 13:09

Reply to comment 6171 by AR

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12 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email

Well, I think you are definitely right about some things, and you may be right about everything: I have not followed it assiduously, but I have followed a few threads and seen a few synopses. All my conclusions are still tentative, and I suspect everyone’s conclusions should be tentative for at least a month or two.

You’re right that there have been much more provocative fundamentalist belches. But that doesn’t really give the whole picture either. Sweatt’s belch provoked a response from Bixby which was then followed by Bauder with this:
Within the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International I have no power at all. The only thing that I can do is to appeal to the members of the board, whom I believe to be men of integrity and good will. Pastor Sweatt has handed you an opportunity to show what you really believe. If you wish to model the kind of fundamentalism that really is worth saving, then the time has come.
and then:
One week ago I said that the leadership of the FBFI could not afford to ignore this problem. I urged them to speak up and to clarify where the boundaries of fundamentalist fellowship really lie. The leadership did what they needed to do for this moment. They took a step that was intermediate but adequate.

Adequate for whom?

So what Bauder did, wittingly or not, was to insert himself as a non-pastor and a non-member of FBFI to redefine this as a test of his “fundamentalism worth saving”.

He saw a parade and the opportunity to run to the front and control it.

Doran then donned his culottes and cheerleader socks, grabbed his pom-poms and started his little pep rally for what Bauder had said. Both times. In response FBFI did absolutely nothing, the effect of which came across as sheer insolence. This left all the onlookers asking themselves not just about Sweatt’s howl and the standing of Calvinists in the FBFI, but about their future in this “new image fundamentalism”.

I suspect it will take some time for the YFs to think it through, but it’s not looking good for the folks Sweatt attacked. It is looking good for the evangelicals Sweatt purportedly was aiming at when he shot at Calvinism.

This, coupled with some other recent imperious scoldings within Old Fundamentalism, may be shaping up to be exactly what old fundies feared: the on-going search for more attractive leadership.

Ironic.

The famous Laws quotation was a call to do “battle royal”. One of the definitions of battle royal is a fight to the finish or a fight till the last man is standing. It seems that fundamentalism intends to make good on this promise, even if it means shooting at their young’uns.

PermalinkPermalink 05/29/09 @ 16:52

Reply to comment 6173 by dissidens

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13 Comment from: AR [Visitor] Email · http://alanaroberts.wordpress.com
Pom-poms and culottes! Hah, hah...
PermalinkPermalink 06/05/09 @ 05:09

Reply to comment 6182 by AR

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14 Comment from: AR [Visitor] Email · http://alanaroberts.wordpress.com
Yes, after thought, I should have been more tentative. Also it wasn't fair of me to speak so ill of Bauder, who, after all, is a pretty splendid fellow in his own person. But I say that more for those who may have been wounded on seeing what I wrote, than for you, Dissidens.

None of this is pleasant...I suppose it's properly the sort of thing from which one ought to avert one's eyes. I kind of wish I had, now.

But it's instructive. Very instructive.
PermalinkPermalink 06/06/09 @ 22:35

Reply to comment 6184 by AR

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15 Comment from: danofsteel [Member] Email
Well, I must have been dozing. By the time I saw any of this, SI redefined itself again, so I have no idea what's going on.

I suppose I should pay more attention to FBFI since my pastor is on the board, but the Sunday morning circus leaves wanting less fundamentalism, not more.
PermalinkPermalink 06/14/09 @ 10:49

Reply to comment 6193 by danofsteel

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16 Comment from: dissidens [Member] Email

Seems SI has gone into the reprint ministry.

PermalinkPermalink 06/14/09 @ 11:51

Reply to comment 6195 by dissidens

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