I saw the "shoplifting" article, but not the story about tithing. The two together make a very appropriate juxtaposition, and I think you've highlighted it perfectly.

When I read the article about shoplifting, the following quote jumped out at me as being tragically off-target:

"The observation that shoplifting is the best option that some people are left with is a grim indictment of who we are."

It reminded me of two common-sense observations that C.S. Lewis made. First was:

"I find that when I think I am asking God to forgive me I am often…asking Him to do something quite different. I am asking Him not to forgive me but to excuse me. But there is all the difference in the world between forgiving and excusing."

the other Lewis quote that came to mind was something about, "When people speak of 'we', they often mean 'everyone but me'". This one is roughly paraphrased, since I cannot find the exact quote in my notes. The point being that anyone who would propagate "a grim indictment of who we are", normally does not identify himself as being a member of "we".

Joshua, thank you for the C.S. Lewis references. For readers interested in considering the forgiveness reference further, the quotation is from Lewis' essay "On Forgiveness." It is worth reading.

Your comment led me to reflect further on the "best option" quotation, and I recalled noting a stark contrast between the thinking of this priest and George Müller. The best-option observation provides a grim indictment of the size of this priest's god, which is evidently quite small and weak if it needs persons to shoplift to meet their needs.

Servo: ["The best-option observation provides a grim indictment of the size of this priest's god, which is evidently quite small and weak if it needs persons to shoplift to meet their needs."]

Quite frankly, people don't shoplift to meet their needs. They shoplift to fulfill the divine decree. Remember, God has decreed "whatsoever comes to pass." And since shoplifting has come to pass (or perhaps will in the case of the priest's advice), God has decreed it. And if He has decreed it, who are we to criticize it? In fact, why would anyone--especially a believer--castigate a shoplifter (or anyone who recommends shoplifting) for being perfectly obedient to the supreme will of God?
Just thinking Calvinistically.

tjp

tjp: Are you being sarcastic? I hope so, because the picture you portray of Calvinism is a caricature.

Hungry,

Actually, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I was merely reflecting basic Calvinism. If God has ordained all things, then that pretty much says it all, no?

W.G.T. Shedd: "Sin is one of the 'whatsoevers' that have 'come to pass,' all of which are 'ordained.'"

J.G. Machen: "All Things including even the wicked actions of wicked men and devils--are brought to pass in accordance with God's eternal purpose."

J. Piscator: "We neither can do more good than we do, nor less evil than we do; because God from eternity hath precisely decreed, that both the good and the evil be so done."

W. Tucker: "We maintain, not only that God is the sole rule and guide of all events; but that he actually decreed their existence--the time when, the manner how, and the place where, from all eternity."

--- "Sin is a wise and holy ordination of God." That "He whose single thought at once comprehends eternity's unbounded round ordained its being." That "Moral evil exists in consequence of the Divine will."

J. Edwards: "God did form all eternity, decree the commission of all the sins in the world, because his secret will, is his real will."

M. Luther: "God worketh all things in all men, even wickedness in the wicked."

And it gets worse . . .

I don't have to caricature Calvinism. It does a good job of humiliating itself.


tjp

And where did you study "basic Calvinism", tjp?

You're a brave, brave man, tjp, internet warrior! How manly of you to come here and pick on the intern about your fringe issue! You remind me of the mighty hyena, that noble beast which follows the herd of gnus waiting for the aged and the lame to straggle off the back! Not that Servo couldn't whack you with his Ante-Nicene Fathers set and send you scampering back to the swamp from which you nobly slithered, but it's somewhat glaringly obvious that you valorously did not gnaw on the leg of dissidens concerning your beef with Calvin! You must be a pillar in your local assembly, or at least a coat rack!

I'm surprised you didn't demonize Wescott and Hort in the same screed. They were baby-baptizing Anglicans: do you want them telling you whether the blood belongs in your NT? You have work to do.

(sigh)These are days when it seems far safer to learn piety from the pagans than from the professing Christians.

hungry soul:

You're right. Sorry bout that.

Diss,

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but my wife and I were on vacation this past week in Santa Barbara.

You asked where I studied "basic Calvinism."

I never said I studied "basic Calvinism," much less where. I said I was merely "reflecting basic Calvinism," which I was certainly doing in the quotes I offerred.

Calvin makes it very plain that men are under the compulsion of the divine decree and that all things come about according to its dictates. If this is so, and Calvin and many of his followers certainly believed it to be so, then men shoplift to fulfill His decree. It's hard not to come to that conclusion especially given Calvin's views on divine sovereignty--that is, that absolute sovereignty equals total necessitation.

Here's Calvin in his own words. (And, yes, I take his words to be "basic Calvinism.")
______________

"I will not scruple to own that the will of God lays a necessity on all things, and that every thing he wills necessarily comes to pass."

"Every action and motion of every creature is so governed by the hidden counsel of God, that nothing can come to pass, but what was ordained by him."

"The acts of God's omnipotency are to be distinguished from his legislative acts; by these last, God always forbids sin: but by the former, he secretly excites men unto it, whence it comes to pass that they cannot but sin."

"It is an awful decree, I confess; but no one can deny that God foreknew the future final fate of man before he created him, and that he did foreknow it because it was appointed by his own decree"

"What other than the good pleasure of God is the cause why the fall of Adam involved in eternal and remediless death whole nations with their infant offspring?

"I ask again, how has it come to pass that the fall of Adam has involved so many nations with their infant children in eternal death, and this without remedy, but because such was the will of God? Here the tongues that have been so voluble it becomes to be mute. It is a dreadful decree, I confess."

"We say that it was effected by the counsel and will of God that Adam should fall, and that we all should fall into this wretched state in which we are now entangled."

"God so ordains by his council and his will that some among men should be born devoted to certain death from the womb, to glorify his name by their destruction."

"I acknowledge this to be my doctrine: that not merely by the permission of God, but by secret counsel, Adam fall, and by his fall drew all his posterity into eternal ruin."

"Nothing is more absurd than to think any thing at all is done but by the ordination of God."

"The wills of men are so governed by the will of God, that they are carried on straight to the mark which he has foreordained."

"God not only foresaw that Adam would fall, but also ordained that he should."

"He [Adam] fell not only by the permission, but also by the appointment, of God."

"He [Adam] sinned because God so ordained, because the Lord saw good."

"I confess, indeed, that all the sons of Adam fell into that miserable condition in which they are now bound, by the will of God: and that is what I asserted at the beginning, that we must always return to the sole determination of the Divine will."

"The Reprobate want to be considered as excusable in sinning, because it is impossible for them to avoid the necessity of sinning, especially since a necessity of this kind is imposed upon them by the ordinance of God. But we say, that there is no reason for their being excused on this ground, since the ordinance of God, by which they complain that they are destined to destruction, has its own equity, unknown indeed to us, but most certain."

"That the Reprobate do not obey the word of God, when explained to them, will be rightly imputed to the wickedness and maliciousness of their own hearts, provided it be at the same time added, that they are therefore addicted to this wickedness, because they are raised up by the just but inscrutable judgement of God, to illustrate his glory by their damnation."

"They deny that the Scripture says God decreed Adam's fall. They say he might have chose either to fall or not; and that God foreordained only to treat him according to his desert: as if God had created the noblest of all his creatures, without foreordaining what should become of him!"

"The devil and wicked men are so held in on every side with the hand of God, that they cannot conceive, or contrive, or execute any mischief, any farther than God himself doth not permit only, but command. Nor are they only held in fetters, but compelled also, as with a bridle, to perform obedience to those commands."

"Let this be the sum; since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, that his providence is appointed to be the ruler in all the counsels and works of men; so that it not only exerts its power in the elect, who are governed by the Holy Spirit, but also compels the compliance of the reprobate."

"In the creatures there is no erratic power, or action, or motion; but they are so governed by the counsel of God that nothing can happen but what is subject to his knowledge, and decreed by his will. First, then, let the readers know that what is called providence describes God, not as idly beholding from heaven the transactions which happen in the world, but as holding the helm of the universe, and regulating all events"

"God of his own good pleasure ordains that many should be born, who are from the womb devoted to inevitable damnation. If any man pretend that God's foreknowledge lays them under no necessity of being damned, but rather that he decreed their damnation, because he foreknew their wickedness, I grant that God's foreknowledge alone lays no necessity on the creature; but eternal life and death depend on the will rather than the foreknowledge of God. If God only foreknew all things that relate to all men, and did not decree and ordain them also, then it might be inquired whether or no his foreknowledge necessitates the thing foreknown. But seeing he herefore foreknows all things that will come to pass, because he has decreed they shall come to pass, it is vain to contend about foreknowledge, since it is plain all things come to pass by God's positive decree."

"Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which he hath determined in himself what he would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death."

"Since the disposition of all things is in the hand of God; since the power of salvation and of death resides in him; he so ordains by his counsel and his will, that some among men should be born devoted to certain death from the womb, to glorify his name by their destruction."

"Impious persons object, that men are exempt from guilt, if the will of God has the principal part in their salvation or destruction. Does Paul deny it? Nay, by his answer he confirms that God appointed what seemed good to him concerning men; that, nevertheless, men in vain and furiously rise up to quarrel, because God of his own right assigns to his creatures what lot he wills."

"There is no doubt but that God, before the formation of the world, decreed what he would do concerning every one of us; and by his secret judgement assigned to every one his proper part."

"God, from the beginning, decreed what should happen to the whole human race."

"I confess that I wrote that the fall of Adam was not accidental, but ordained by the secret decree of God."

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are foreordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and accordingly as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."

"We do not with the stocis immagine a necessity arising from a perpetual concatenation and intricate serious of causes contained in nature; but we make God the abettor and governer of all things, who in his own wisdom hath from the remotest eternity decreed what he would do, and now by his own power executes whta he hath decreed. Whence we assert, that not only the heaven and eath and inanimate cureatures, but also the deliberations and volitions of men, are so goverened by his providence, as to be directed to the end appointed."

"And now I suficiently proved that God is called the Author of all these things, which according to the system of these censors, happen only by his uninfluential permssion. He declares that he creates light an drkness, that he forms good an evil: and that no evil occurs which he hath not performed."

"Hence, was invented the distinction between doing and permiting; because to many persons this appeared an inexplicable difficulty, that Satan and all the impious are subject to the power and government of God, so that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases, and uses their crimes for the execution of his judgments. They therefore endeavour to evade the difficulty, by alleging that it happens only by permission, and by the will of God; but God himself, by the most unequivocal declartions, rejects the subterfuge."

"If the blinding and infatuation of Ahab be the Divine judgment, the pretence of bare permission disappears. for it would be ridiculous for a judge merely to permit, without decreeing what should be done, and commanding his officers to execute it."

Now, you see what you did here, tjp?

[Perhaps you lost focus in the excitement of a week in Santa Barbara.]

I asked you a simple question provoked by something you said, and you have not answered my question. Instead, all you’ve done is reproduce [to the tune of 1565 words] what I take to be your grasp of "basic Calvinism".

I don’t care that it is unacceptable to you, and I really don’t even care why it is unacceptable to you. What I’m really curious to know is, as I asked Jan. 3: Where did you study “basic Calvinism”?

As far as I’m concerned, it’s perfectly fine that you reject Calvinism; what is not so fine is that you misrepresent its meaning here in this conversation and try to obfuscate with a list of quotations which do not speak to the point.

I agree with hungry soul that this is a caricature; I'm fascinated not to know more about the caricature but where it came from.

“Basic Calvinism” was the term you chose. I’m still curious to know where you picked this up? Were you taught this? and if so, where? If you were not taught this and this is merely some misunderstanding unique to you, could you confirm that for our readers?

Thanks.

Diss,


Well, it's easy to lose focus for sure, and I appreciate your concern, but I didn't lose focus, actually. Rather I sought to preserve it. Your question was a diversion. You never addressed the real issue: Do people shoplift to fulfill the divine decree? If Calvinism is true, and God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass, then His ordination is precisely why people shoplift (or do anything else, for that matter). To show that "basic Calvinism," or the teaching of John Calvin, was in lockstep with my contention, I offered numerous quotes from Calvin's writings, principally his Institutues, which confirm my claim.

Again, I don't see your question as pertinent to the accuracy or reliability of my statement, that the reason people shoplift is to fulfill the divine decree. But to answer your query directly: I've never taken a single class on Calvinism. I've never attended a single seminar on Calvinism. In fact, I've never even written a paper on it. What I've learned about Calvinism, I've learned mainly from Calvinist literature, of which I keep a healthy stash on hand. Does that help?

You say I've misreprsented Calvin's meaning. Really? Perhaps, then, you can straighten me out. But before you do, would you please cite your credentials for doing so. I'm sure your many hours of the formal study of Calvinism will enhance your critique. It will certainly engender confidence in me that you're not simply a quack physcian who fails to heal himself and who ducks behind such lame seminar expressions as "mispresent his meaning" and "caricature."

Once again, for your reading pleasure and personal edification, I offer you additional evidence that Calvinism really does support the notion that the reason people shoplift is to fulfill the divine decree. Certainly no self-respecting Calvinist would maintain that sin or anything else transpires apart from the divine decree.
_________________


T. Beza: "God predestinated not only unto damnation, but also unto the causes of it, whomsoever he saw meet."

J. Calvin: "God ordained even the fall itself of the first man, and decreed that it should happen, and that from eternity, just as he decreed from eternity the creation of man."

-- "Although in the sin of Adam that was done which by the decree of God had been appointed to come to pass, yet that decree was not known to Adam, since God wished he should sin."

J. Edwards: "The eternal decree is the cause of the necessary futurition of evil acts, for the acts ineviably follow on the decree."

G. Theophulus: "So great is the majesty of God, and so absolute his dominion, as that he is obnoxious to no laws, obligations, or ties from his creature; this absolute justice or dominion regards not any qualities or conditions in its object, but God can by virtue hereof inflict the highest torments on his innocent creature, and exempt from punishment the most nocent. By this absolute justice or dominion God can inflict the greatest torments even of hell itself on the most innocent creature."

S. Hopkins: "God moves, executes, and stirs up men to do that which is sinful; he deceives, blinds, hardens, and puts sin into the heart, by a positive creative influence."

P. Martyr: "God cannot be termed the author of sin, though he is the cause of those actions which are sins."

D. Pareus: "It is the opinion of our doctors, that God did inevitably decree the temptation and fall of man. The creature sinneth indeed necessarily, by the most just judgment of God. Our men do most rightly affirm that the fall of man was necessary and inevitable, not by accident, because of God's decree."

J. Piscator: "Reprobates are absolutely ordained to this two-fold end: to undergo everlasting punishment, and necessarily to sin; and therefore to sin that they might be justly punished."

--"God made Adam and Eve to this very purpose, that they might be tempted and led into sin. And by force of his decree, it could not otherwise be but they must sin."

-- "The reprobates were predestinated to damnation and the causes of damnation, and created to that end, that they may live wickedly, and be vessels full of the dregs of sin."

--"For we neither can do more good than we do, nor less evil than we do; because God from eternity has precisely decreed that both the good and the evil should be so done."

--"God procures adultery, cursings, lyings."

-- "God doth holily drive or thrust men on unto wickedness."

--"We confess that a necessity of sinning is incumbent on the reprobate, and of sinning unto death without repentance, and of suffering eternal punishment for it. When God necessitates man unto sin he may punish man for sin, becasue he hath power to govern man as he lists."

--"We can neither do more good than we do, nor less evil than we do: becasue god from eternity has precisely decreed that both the good and the evil be so done."

--"God doth holily drive or thrust men on unto wickedness."

--"He who wills an end necessarily wills also the means which are necessary to secure the end. Hence for the manifestation of mercy and justice in remitting and punishing sin, sin is necessary."

--"God therefore gave to man a commandment that man might transgress it, and he himself in this way obtain occasion to punish him."

--"God made man with this design that he might in fact fall, since only in this way could he arrive at those chief ends."

--"To sin nevertheless, although it be sin, both the elect and the reprobate were foreordained, since from it the glory of God was to be manifested by his goodness."

--"If God has made the wicked for punishment, it follows that he may also have made him for sin, since unless sin had preceded, he could not justly inflict punishment upon him."

--"But when God necessitates a man to sin, that he may punish him on account of sin, he does it justly, since he has power to govern man as he will."

A. Toplady: "God either directly or remotely excites bad men, as well as good ones to action. He undoubtedly is the supreme author of all our actions, even all the actions done by the wicked."

--"Hence we find every matter resoved ultimately into the mere sovereign pleasure of God as the spring and occasion of whatever is done in heaven and earth."

--"That whatsoever is done below or above God doeth it himself."

--"What his will determined, that his decree established, and his providence, ether mediately or immediately effects. His will was the adorable spring of all."

W. Tucker: "Moral evil exists in consequence of the Divine will."

--"Every idea, thought and puprose, that takes place in rational spirits throughout their existence, were all fixed in his eternal plan. Nor could the least idea, more or less, ever be admitted into, or committed from the grand scheme of things, but that which was worthy the highest wisdom to fix, ordain, and determine."

--"Sin did not slip in unperceived among created beings; no! he whose single thought at once comprehended eternity's unbounded round ordained its being, and fixed its limits with the utmost precision; nor shall a single thought more or less than is fixed in his all wise plan, be ever found among rational beings."

--"All things, with their times, modes, circumstances, were fixed from eternity, and were those which would infallibly, without the least variation, have being."

--"I would offer a few considerations to shew that thought he exitence of sin was in consequence of the sovereign appointment of God; yet, it was impossible that he should be blamable cause of it."

--"If God is infinte in wisdom, he must not only know, fix, and determine; but work all things (without exception) after the counsel of his own will: and nothing can possibly exist but as the effect thereof."

--"The sovereignty of the Divine will renders it impossible that any event should exist, but as the effect of his absolute determination."

--"All things whatsoever, from the beginning to the end, must originate in, and be the result of, the eternal determinate will of God."

J. Twisse: "All things come to pass by the efficacious and irresistible will of God."

--"It is impossible that any thing should ever be done, but that to which God impels the will of man."

--"God is the author of that action, which is sinful, by his irresistible will."

J. Zanchius: "God's first constitution was, that some should be destined to eternal ruin; and to this end their sins were ordained, and denial of grace in order to their sins."

--"We grant that the reprobate, constrained by this decree of God, are under the necessity of sinning and of perishing in sin; yea, so constrained that they cannot but sin and perish."

--"This, then, was the first thing which from eternity God determined concerning reprobates, namely, the appointment of certain men to everlasting destruction. To this end, moreover, their sins were ordained, also their abandonment to sin and denial of grace."

U. Zwingli: "When God makes angels or men sin, he does not sin himself, because he does not break any law. For God is under no law, and therefore cannot sin."

--"God moveth the robber to kill. He Killeth, God forcing him thereunto. But thou wilt say, He is forced to sin; I permit, truly, that he is forced."

What you've learned about Calvinism you’ve learned mainly from your personal reading of Calvinist literature.

Thanks for that admission.

tjp,

Thank you for the pretty list of quotes. Unfortunately, it is difficult to know what you are getting at if you do not bring an argument to the table. A little bit of help from logic, grammar, and rhetoric would help you to draw inferences and put the quotes together to form something meaningful.

Until then, we will wait to hear what you mean.

Well, actually, (and I think I can speak for the blog) we’re not waiting.

First, tjp can hold whatever crackpot opinions he likes about Calvinism. We are decidedly indifferent. Second, Remonstrans is really not the place for dilettantes to explain how they get from serious theological texts to their own particular prejudices.

I suspect that that is not a line worth tracing.

Experience suggests that the place for this level of discussion would be in a college freshman dorm equipped, perhaps, with lots of pillows.

So much on Hayward, the Trucker et al. had led us to believe you were generally catholic when it came to crackpoticisms.

It seems tjp can't be encouraged to address the connection between his lists of quotations and the conclusions he draws from them.

He thinks he has offered proof and he assumes his quotations should scandalize us.

He hasn't and they don't.

I just don't see a benefit on the horizon.

That's not to say others can't pursue it; I speak only for the blog proper.

Dissidens,

I agree. I have not found people who think of quotations as proofs to be the type to pursue the education necessary to bring meaningful conversation to the table.

They do have a tendency to bring it to dorm rooms and other similar establishments sometimes known to be called churches.

The church has come to be something of a sanctuary for incompetent scoundrels.

I learned today that the city must inspect the work even of hot water heater installers. Theology seems to be the only discipline left to amateurs and quotation jockeys.

Diss,

You're welcome concerning the admission. But I don't think I was admitting to anything but merely answering your question.

I see your butt flies have been swarming thick today and confirming you in your own pomposity. Man, you folks are a hoot. You really are. Calvinists always lose it when confronted with the nonsense of their own system. They huff and puff, blow and snort, threaten and damn and yet never get around to addressing the issue.

Now you've accused me of misrepresenting Calvinism, of being a crackpot and an incompetent scoundrel, of being a quotation jockey (very nice), of exaggerating the claims of Geneva, and of misunderstanding the real issue. Yet you've not addressed my error. You've not proven false my assertion that the reason people shoplift is to fulfill the divine decree.

Since you, along with your adorents, criticize me with such confidence, I assume you possess the academic credentials to do so. Again, for the second time, would you please list for me your professional accomplishments in the area of Calvinism, accomplishments that embolden you to deny what Calvinists have affirmed for centuries--that "It is impossible that any thing should ever be done, but that to which God impels the will of man."

If you have any written or published materials on Calvinism--whether in academic journals, books, monographs, or self published literature--perhaps you could direct me to those sources. Surely you'd not waste a moment to disabuse a brother who fallaciously asserts that Calvinists believe that whatever transpires in time was previously decreed in eternity.

In my last post I said, "If Calvinism is true, and God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass, then His ordination is precisely why people shoplift (or do anything else, for that matter)." And to substantiate my point, I offered over seventy quotes from more than a dozen Calvinian writers, all of which confirm my point: that all things--including the good and the evil--that transpire in time were decreed in eternity.

Unlike yourself I believe citations are important. The words of those who formulate a doctrine should stand as evidence for that doctrine. When the Westminster divines say that God has ordained all that comes to pass, it is only fair and right their words be taken at face value. And when we take them so, they imply the very thing I assert: that the reason people shoplift is to fulfill the divine decree.

Now, if you could stop bloviating and pontificating for half a post, would please show me where my logic, grammar, rhetoric, and theology abandon me in concluding that the reason people shoplift is to fulfill the divine decree. Oh, and please apply those rigorous textual and historical canons you learned in your Calvin studies.

I'm waiting . . .

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory...

Some mysteries we marvel at. At others we tremble.

I do not know of any that we sneer at.

tjp:

Thank you for your coarse invitation, but I’d really prefer not to be implicated in your miseducation.

It is important that no one associate me with your views beyond knowing that I inquired into your training and that you admitted to having none. I am more than happy to drop the matter and spare you any further embarrassment.

TJP: You were the one who "bloviat[ed] and pontificat[ed]." You were also the one who, apparently with great deliberation, changed the entire subject of what was being discussed to push your own anti-Calvinism. If you truly believe what you say, do you not owe it to what you believe to persuade convincingly and not crassly or crudely?

Diss,

I appreciate your concern for my embarrassment. How magnanimous of you! You really know how to feel for a brother.

Your decision to pull out, however, still leaves me wondering about your academic credentials concerning Calvinism. Since you refuse to list them, I assume they're no better than a high school dropout's.

Too, I was hoping you'd debunk my assertion that the reason people shoplift is to fulfill the divine degree by the same painstaking historical analysis you employed in proving Sheffy fathered a love child. But I guess that won't happen now. And of course we're all diminished accordingly.

I am now returning to my enjoyment for the evening, the Ancient Faith Radio broadcast.

Have a good one!

I’m not sure I am qualified to address the matter of the divine degree [sic], tj. I’ll have to read up on that.

As for the venerated Robert S. Sheffey and the sentimental diversion he inspired, my position is unchanged.

But do enjoy your radio show.

tjp,

Calvin answers the question himself, he just doesn't do it in the lists of quotes you find in your sources. Unfortunately, if you wanted Calvin's explanation, it would involve reading the Institutes as well as some of his commentaries, which may take some more time than flipping to a list of quotes. You see, there is a lot of rich material in what we call "the context," an amazing invention that has revolutionized the scholarly world in the last few thousand years. It looks and feels a lot like the quotes you find in your books, except that the author's actual meaning becomes more apparent the more "context" you read (assuming you're taking the time to understand it and not reading your philistine pig-ignorance into it). Google it: you'll be able to impress your scholarly friends with this new-found knowledge, and it can revolutionize you too. Perhaps you could forward your findings to the website where you buy your pamphlets.

yours truly,

a butt fly who cares