Maybe you can add the tangled locutions of Joel & Mike to your list, the "shared think"ers over at the Internet Roach Motel: http://sharperiron.org/article/koinonia-arizona-standpoint-conference

"We have no idea if there is something historically significant being formed here, but if there is, we need to hear more voices about what shape it should take." Won't that be interesting, the shape it takes? Talk about lack of direction. Apparently fundamentalism has been especially amorphous in the past, they way movements, it seems, tend to be. But they're done with that, which is perhaps why they want to see something emerge with . . . shape.

Best part, showing that nothing ever changes: "If they come to our group and are disgruntled about Fundamentalism or any other movement, hopefully they’ll leave realizing they need to get over that!" "Disillusioned is a good thing. Who wants to live in an illusion?"

Who indeed? Gritty realities there, and then some advice: "Keep your eye on Christ and the only ball-game that matters."

Just in time for the Super Bowl.

And the propaganda: "The leaders who will be speaking at Standpoint are just average guys." I have the feeling they're going to be definitely below-average.

I'm amazed.

That site of misinformation, disinformation, and disaffection is still pumping out its bilge?

Give us one more decade and I'm sure we will all have shape shifted into whatever the shape of the prevailing culture might be - just like the fake Seikos momentarily displayed for purchase on the lining of a guy's trenchcoat in Queens. That movement, the one I grew up in, will be the same as everything else only less expensive and possessing much lower quality.

Well, gentlemen, it appears that the fathers failed to understand the importance of “shared-thinking” and the necessity of koinonia. The sons seem to have a good handle on those two things now. Plus they have cell phones.

Frankly, I don’t see how this thing can fail!

Our age has finally produced the intellects, the sensibilities and the technology to solve this two thousand-year old problem. Surely we have been blessed.

Nothing for us to do but stand back and watch fellowship bloom.

Yeah, the bilge is a pumpin' out out the ol' roach motel with more vigor than ever.
Just how many do you guys hope to persuade to your way of thinking by piling on insults?
Just curious. A number would be helpful so I can sort of measure how well its working. ...and maybe we'll take up this method of persuasion over at the Internet Roach Motel Bilge Pump.
I doubt it though. (Last time we used the word "bully" the roof nearly caved in).

I only answer for myself. I doubt that the kind of brilliant and scathing analysis I have provided above would be successful at the Internet Roach Motel. Perhaps dissidens and exlibris will feel otherwise.

For the problem with people who are sensitive about being called bullies, have you ever tried just telling them to get over it? It is a favorite method of persuasion in some quarters, and maybe it could work out for you as well.

Aaron Blumer:

How many do I hope to persuade to my way of thinking? That’s easy: zero

I think some might benefit from considering my way of thinking, but that’s hardly my intent. In fact if anyone adopts my way of thinking, I’ll consider it an unforeseen tragedy.

I’m more interested in seeing to it that when I’m gone the wisdom of the past will survive me. That you people should continue the spastic, short-sighted, impulsive, and balmy remedies you have adopted is beyond belief and the patience of desperate people.

That is why your movement is shrinking and why people like Tim King, Doug Pagitt, Brian McLaren and David Hayward are enjoying so much attention. Clearly it is not because they are succeeding.

In short, it is my opinion that you, your blog, and the sort of gibberish about to be presented in Gilbert are doing more to conceal the remedy than anything else in view.

For example:

9:30 AM -- Joel Tetreau - "The Sine-quo-non of Koinonia" What constitutes Biblical fellowship? What is the basis of unity and fellowship? Does this imply anything about separation? Beyond all our movements, what is our Lord’s true vision for our fellowship?

When are you posers going to stop this goofy conference gadding?

The “Sine-quo-non of Koinonia” [sic]? The Lord’s true vision for your fellowship?!

Please; your time would be better spent at a Star Trek Convention.

"zero"
OK, well have at it then. Forget I said anything.

Not a problem.

Aaron, dissidens needs no spokesman. Nevertheless, I say his intent is not first to persuade. It is to poke. It is to prod. It is to pinch. It is to cut. In a word, it is to sharpen. kraml

Without directly contradicting kraml’s comment, perhaps I might clarify for some newer readers.

My objection is not to the idea of persuasion; persuasion is generally a good thing. Persuasion certainly is an improvement over the typical Fundamentalist way of effecting change: dictating a party line. Instituting spirituality by fiat. I am not the next generation’s Frank Garlock or Beneth Jones. I am not editing an alternative hymnbook or writing a “handbook on Christian loveliness”. I am not passing out demerits, I am not insinuating “standards” to be imposed on every college campus, summer camp, and church fellowship hall in the galaxy.

This has been shown to be false and futile.

My objection is to any desire to—as Blumer phrased it—“persuade to your way of thinking”.

My way of thinking is not the issue. My readers will never love what I love and they will never hate what I hate. They need to look to a more reliable guide than another human and his eccentric and parochial reading of Scripture.

No one will be helped if in a decade or so you will all be humiliated into retracting some indefensible attitude like the one BJU had toward Negroes. I am commending the mature and learned judgments of perceptive people (e.g., Weaver, Tozer, Eliot, Wells, Holloway, Scruton…) on matters that are now in manifest disarray.

This is how a culture works. Culture is not doing what I say; culture is a maintenance and a sharing of certain virtues. That is not my job.

Even if it were my job, you would not tolerate my holding the office: I despise fundamentalist culture. Before my name ever made it onto your letterhead you’d find everything you love in the alley dumpster.

This is not about “my way of thinking”, this is about your way of failing.

A bit of profound self-awareness in this line: "They need to look to a more reliable guide than another human and his eccentric and parochial reading of Scripture."

Exactly so.

Well, in fundamentalism we get quite enough of parochialism paraded about as some sort of holy eccentricity.

I think the application of parochial may be appropriate for describing your "situatedness," but relatively speaking I find much less parochialism here than Janz' Jungle.

It was interesting how Aaron came out flailing the dagger. I've conversed with him, and I've always wondered what he was doing over there. Who wants to play referee at a back alley pick-up game of hoops? He seemed like such a sensible person . . .

Then again, what am I doin'?

I’m not sure, but I suspect some have taken their eye off the ball. I think uncultured one perceived an opportunity to score off me and—as I read his comment—tried to suggest I inadvertently admitted to being aberrant or deviant.

I did not say I was aberrant (having wandered off the right course), I said I was eccentric (fr. Gk. ekkentros, off center). It’s true.

I am not going to lie about it or spin it as is the fashion today. I’m not going to pretend that I am still where the center was, is, and forever will be, you can canonize me now if you like. This movement has made peripheral matters central and essential matters subsidiary.

The deal was made and the birthright was willingly exchanged for a mess of pottage. There’s no benefit in believing we are warmed by the same fires our grandfathers built. That’s just preposterous.

There’s no consolation for me in fudging the obvious. We know what Fundamentalist culture is. We read the books, we heard the sermons, we sang the ditties, we watched the skits, we read their Annual Resolutions. Let’s not finesse the truth.

The center has moved and I have not followed. No one should think differently, and no one should wish that I’m some sort of Sherpa that can lead you back to base camp. Base camp is under 20 feet of ice by now.

“My way of thinking”—defend it as I will—is not the stuff a culture is made of. And I’m not trying to persuade people to my way of thinking. Fundamentalists need to go find another Frank Garlock and Beneth Jones.

(And I’m quite sure they will.)

I would encourage you guys to go back and read the context of the conference. You guys are sharper than this. Really, you guys are the ones coming off "wackier" than Goofy. This is primarily about our congregation and ministries already attached to our local congregation. We are inviting "outsiders" that are polite enough to listen first, understand second then determine where you agree or disagree. This takes class and tact....which means most of you are disqualified to attend. But that's OK because you have a nice blog you can hang out with over here. I'm happy you all have each other. You deserve each other.

Straight Ahead!

jt

ps - Let me encourage some of you to actually ask me in person what we're doing instead of twisting what you read with the worst slant you can come up with. I'll answer my mail - pastorjoel@sevbc.org

Dear Dr. Tetreau:

Thanks for letting us know we are “disqualified to attend”. I didn’t see that on your promotional literature, and that kind of information really would have been helpful.

I do think I’ll hold on to my plane tickets and maybe swing up to see Arizona’s other grand monument to emptiness.

Dearest dissidens,

Never mind. Proverbs 26:4.

Straight behind!

jt

It's already forgotten.